tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post115567508490228403..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: Orthodoxy and WomenOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1158803927920990312006-09-20T21:58:00.000-04:002006-09-20T21:58:00.000-04:00For all the sources in Judaism that are clearly no...For all the sources in Judaism that are clearly not all that friendly to women, I don't think I know a single Ashkenazi family -- except maybe on the farthest right -- where the women aren't the ones who are really in charge. I wonder if maybe all the charedi ideas about the roles of women today are yet another instance of people today taking what got written down more seriously than the actual inherited tradition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1156304215029058472006-08-22T23:36:00.000-04:002006-08-22T23:36:00.000-04:00Larry,"After living here (and also after living in...Larry,<BR/><BR/>"After living here (and also after living in a Conservative Jewish community) I think I have the answer. The Orthodox system simply isn't flexible enough to handle free choice."<BR/><BR/>That may be true today, but who knows what future years may hold. It may very well be possible to see lefty MO congregations with egalitarian services in the coming decades. Just last week an MO congregation in Manhattan hired a woman to be their poseket and community leader. And that was a step few could foresee in this current rightward bound Orthodox atmosphere.<BR/><BR/>"The ability to live in a community that takes observance seriously outweighs my desire to support the egalitarianism I believe in."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I hear that. I guess I really think somewhere along those lines myself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Onion,<BR/><BR/>"It is astounding, the level of brainwashing that many women go through."<BR/><BR/>We can give the collective existence of BY a big round of applause for that junk.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Billie,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1156299956026633142006-08-22T22:25:00.000-04:002006-08-22T22:25:00.000-04:00There are many interesting points and opinions her...There are many interesting points and opinions here and I'm not going to respond to them all.<BR/><BR/>A couple of things, though. Firstly, while it's nice that "traditional" Judaism values family, I believe it's really just apologetics to equate that with valuing women. Judaism, based on the traditional sources, does not value women. They are treated as chattel in Tanach: a man can divorce a woman for any reason; irreparably shame her if he merely suspects that she's cheating; cut off her hand if she crushes a man's testicles while trying to defend her husband.<BR/><BR/>They are also treated like crap throughout the Mishna and Talmud. Later commentaries (Ibn Ezra, from memory, but I could be mistaken) say that they are actually not obligated in Torah at all. In other words, Judaism is a religion for men, not women. Any attempt that a woman makes to take some kind of ownership of "her" religion is considered worthless. Conveniently, keeping mitzvot that you're actually commanded to do is "worth" more than ones you keep voluntarily (contrary to my logic, at least), so with that line of reasoning, women's attempts to connect to God are meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, just to provide an example of a woman who doesn't fit into the traditional role: me. My current feelings about Judaism nonwithstanding, I never enjoyed the "Torah lite" that's offered to women. I loved studying the convoluted logic of the Talmud. I'm not and never was spiritual; anything along those lines bores me at the very least.<BR/><BR/>And while I enjoy being a wife and mother, it's far from the be-all and end-all for me. I'm ambitious and career-minded as well, and I never appreciate being told what my strengths are when I know that I'm smarter and more capable than plenty of guys.Billie Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05440470967397318818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1156100477371944222006-08-20T15:01:00.000-04:002006-08-20T15:01:00.000-04:00hayim- you are absolutely correct. There are very ...hayim- you are absolutely correct. There are very few women who are aware of the halacha that a drowning man must be saved before a drowning female. Whenever I bring this up in a conversation, I am always astounded by the level of apologetics I end up encountering. Women have actually come up with things like " death is not so bad" and "we women get to be reincarnated again, while the men have to live on earth." It is astounding, the level of brainwashing that many women go through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155905680682554312006-08-18T08:54:00.000-04:002006-08-18T08:54:00.000-04:00As a feminist guy who has spent several years livi...As a feminist guy who has spent several years living in a Modern Orthodox community at the urgings of his wife, I thought I might contribute some thoughts here.<BR/><BR/>When I moved here I thought as Orthoprax did. Why insist on setting up rules by gender? While men and women are different, their is much overlap between them - the strongest women are stronger than many men, and the most empathic men are more empathich than many women. So why not allow freedom of choice?<BR/><BR/>After living here (and also after living in a Conservative Jewish community) I think I have the answer. The Orthodox system simply isn't flexible enough to handle free choice. In my C community, my wife wished to hold by the Roth teshuvah, which requires that for a woman to be counted in the minyah she must commit to thrice daily prayer. Since my wife didn't pray 3 times a day, she didn't want to be counted. This was an incredibly unpopular decision. Not only did some people view her as 'too Orthodox' but on occasions when she would have made the 10th for the minyan she had the choice of walking out or being counted regardless. <BR/><BR/>I sincerely believe that a community that tries to be mixed egal and traditional will either divide, or become one or the other. Where I differ with the party line in my Orthodox community is I welcome the existance of the liberal movements. They give people a choice - if egalitarianism is a make or break issue people can move to an egalitarian community. <BR/><BR/>In my case I have reluctantly joined an O community. The ability to live in a community that takes observance seriously outweighs my desire to support the egalitarianism I believe in. (It didn't hurt that my wife strongly felt she needed us to move to an observant community.) As I told a fellow board member when I resigned from my C synagogue - "I'd rather be at a shul where I'm arguing in favor of women singing zemirot than be at a shul where I am arguing in favor of kosher kiddushes." <BR/><BR/>I know people who have gone the other way - the need for their daughters to lein torah led them to choose to try and help a C community become more observant with respect to Shabbat observance. I can respect different choices than mine without choosing them for myself.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155853527559782312006-08-17T18:25:00.000-04:002006-08-17T18:25:00.000-04:00Just,I'll respond further on the newer post, but n...Just,<BR/><BR/>I'll respond further on the newer post, but not right now since I'm a bit busy.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>"What a crock! How on earth do you know how a woman's mind works?"<BR/><BR/>Ironically that above which you quoted was written by a woman. I don't agree with her perspective, since I believe many women would disagree with her, but it is still a _she_ who wrote it.<BR/><BR/>"One of the biggest problems faced by Orthodox Judaism today is an inability to separate wheat from chaff."<BR/><BR/>Agreed.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155844603089899192006-08-17T15:56:00.000-04:002006-08-17T15:56:00.000-04:00"First of all its not an issur for women to study ..."First of all its not an issur for women to study gemara, but ... once you appreciate the way a woman’s mind works, than [sic] learning gemara is not the best way for her to develop her relationship with hashem [sic], its [sic] not the most conducive [sic] way to actualize herself."<BR/><BR/>What a crock! How on earth do you know how a woman's mind works? Or the best way for her to "actualize" herself? And what makes you such an expert on the best way for a woman to develop her relationship with God? Because a bunch of rabbis (all men) said so? That's simply asinine, and utterly unsupported by any evidence.<BR/><BR/>I learn Gemara (being happily equipped with the appropriate genitalia for Torah study), and I'm quite sure that there are women out there who would not only do it better than I do, but who would enjoy it more (I find it a bit dull, to be honest).<BR/><BR/><BR/>One of the biggest problems faced by Orthodox Judaism today is an inability to separate wheat from chaff. There is plenty that is good and useful about Torah study; there is very little that is good or useful about misogyny. The sooner we jettison this nonsense, the better for all involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155842411271531112006-08-17T15:20:00.000-04:002006-08-17T15:20:00.000-04:00I think I read the same article or something simil...I think I read the same article or something similar. Truthfully, the whole concept is ridiculous. One of the mikvas made up their own symbolism while designing the mikvah. It is 13 feet across to symbolize the age a boy becomes a man, only one door in and out because you should feel like a different person when you come out, 18 feet long because that is chai... etc. (Putting aside the fact that "feet" in judaism don't mean anything so it was more likely nine amos or something like that...) They made up their own symbolism. 13 and 18 have nothing to do with mikva as far as i know, neither does bar mitzvah. They were also making up their own rituals like a divorce immersion... Come out a new person afterwards yaddayaddayadda. So if you are trying to do what feels good to you, then go ahead, make stuff up. But that isn't Judaism. <BR/><BR/><I>You're whole manner of questioning has an explicit assumption which I just don't agree with. I don't think normative Orthodox Halacha is how God 'intended' Judaism to be practiced. And truthfully, I don't think God 'wants' anything from us at all.</I><BR/><BR/>So how do you think he did intend it? Everyone should just do what they want? No daas torah? What is your suggestion?<BR/><BR/><I>Even Black slaves in the American south were satisfied with their lives as long as they had a nice master.<BR/><BR/>People adjust to the status quo.</I><BR/><BR/>They may adjust... but are they satisfied? I would guess that most black slaves in the South weren't. Many tried to escape... The ones that stayed were too afraid to run away for fear of the consequences if caught.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155835749684452102006-08-17T13:29:00.000-04:002006-08-17T13:29:00.000-04:00Just,Yeah, there you have it. You've hit the real ...Just,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, there you have it. You've hit the real crux of the issue. It doesn't matter how sexist the system is or the quality of any of the apologetics put for its defense - if you believe that God Himself commanded it to be this way then you have that choice to either submit before God's will or to rebel against it.<BR/><BR/>This is why Orthodox folks can never talk to the more liberal groups (and vice versa) on any serious topic of ritual observance. Even liberal groups that do want to be observant, they look at Halacha as inspiration for modern rituals and do things that are valuable in themselves. For liberal groups, it is the rule itself that must be supported by its own value. For Orthodoxy, all the rules are ultimately supported by virtue of the belief that God commanded them. They could make absolutely no sense and may even be morally problematic, but since they come from God they are exempt from any serious criticism.<BR/><BR/>I was reading in the Jewish Week recently how there is a revival of interest in mikvah and marital purity laws for women in the liberal branches of Judaism. Most are not thrilled with a two week abstention from physical contact, much less sexual relations, but they do like the idea of renewal and bringing a spiritual rhythym into their marriage.<BR/><BR/>Now, these women do not believe these rituals were declared by God. They are finding value in the acts themselves and and so they take them up. Many of them take on a liberal variant of the Orthodox Halachic version of the practice, where perhaps they only wait until the bleeding stops (and not the additional seven days) before going to a mikvah and resuming normal sexual relations.<BR/><BR/>So a letter to the editor the following week was written by an Orthodox woman saying how she was proudly following the rules as God intended them, waiting the full time, etc., and how she was not in favor of such new approaches which are simply not in accord with Halacha.<BR/><BR/>They are operating on totally different wavelengths.<BR/><BR/>The simple response to her is just that the liberal branches largely don't see Halacha as a series of divine commands and therefore a) they do not feel bound to them the same way and b) they have no theological difficulties modifying them to serve their needs.<BR/><BR/>And I make the same response to you.<BR/><BR/>You're whole manner of questioning has an explicit assumption which I just don't agree with. I don't think normative Orthodox Halacha is how God 'intended' Judaism to be practiced. And truthfully, I don't think God 'wants' anything from us at all.<BR/><BR/>"There are hundreds of thousands of frum women who ARE satisfied with their way of life... Maybe that's something to look into..."<BR/><BR/>And there are millions of Muslim women living in the Middle East who are perfectly satisfied as well. But they don't know what they're missing.<BR/><BR/>Even Black slaves in the American south were satisfied with their lives as long as they had a nice master.<BR/><BR/>People adjust to the status quo.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I think I'm going to have to make this its own post.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155829613714090632006-08-17T11:46:00.000-04:002006-08-17T11:46:00.000-04:00The bottom line is... Do you want to fulfill Judai...The bottom line is... Do you want to fulfill Judaism the way G-d wants you to fulfill it or the way YOU want to fulfill it, the way it makes YOU feel good. There is a mitzvah of talmud torah and davening with a minyan etc. for men and not for women. So when a woman wants to do these things, she is doing something that was not intended for her. If her goal is to fulfill Judaism the way it was meant to be fulfilled for her, then she is going about it the wrong way. The right way would be to ask what does G-d want of her. Stop trying to be a man and be "frum" like a woman. There are hundreds of thousands of frum women who ARE satisfied with their way of life... Maybe that's something to look into...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155744955617181132006-08-16T12:15:00.000-04:002006-08-16T12:15:00.000-04:00Great post. I was introduced to this issue a while...Great post. I was introduced to this issue a while back when I dated a woman who was a staunch "Orthodox Feminist". She was very "frum"--- frummer than me, in the sense that she was very conscientious about not missing mincha, for example, or tearing toilet paper on Shabbos. But she was pro women-led minyanim (within halachic parameters), aliyot, etc. At first it threw me, but after exploring the issue a bit I saw her side. Culturally it was a shock, but I couldn't ignore her position. <BR/><BR/>In any event, Mookie makes some good point, too; to a certain extent, we are using a Western yardstick to compare our religious and cultural practices. And Mookie has accepted a belief system wherein she feels comfortable. But as OP pointed out, the issue is choice; there are many many women who chafe at the restrictions that Orthodoxy imposes upon them. Faranak Margolese explores similar themes in her book, Off The Derech, where people "leave the house" because the rules are too onerous. No account is made for individuality; some women crave the communal services of a minyan and its organized prayer structure, and yearn to be able to offer a bracha on an aliya l'Torah... they see it as a desirous expression of their love for G-d, and no amount of apologetics is going to obviate that yearning. Accommodations should be made for them.<BR/><BR/>As for the "shelo asani isha" bracha, I don't even say it. I can't conscience it. There's just no way to spin something like that-- if it's about men having more mitzvot, why not compose a bracha that reflects that? This liturgy was set up centuries ago, when life was completely different in every way than it is today, and this liturgy reflects that culture and society. So I say (when I actually get to say Brachot) sheasani kirtzono. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's only a liturgy.Nice Jewish Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08143569412761938449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155744784502575742006-08-16T12:13:00.000-04:002006-08-16T12:13:00.000-04:00Israluv,"Woman of COURSE control the direction of ...Israluv,<BR/><BR/>"Woman of COURSE control the direction of the jewish people in a communal level - we RAISE, TEACH and GUIDE the children- the future of the community."<BR/><BR/>Firstly, how are you confusing 'family level' with 'community level'? There's a huge difference in scale.<BR/><BR/>And secondly, I think most mothers actually do relatively little 'teaching' of Jewish life as compared to the yeshivahs and beit yakovs in which children spend most of their waking hours.<BR/><BR/>And thirdly, even in the home, it is often the will of the father that holds final say - assuming this is a household where the mother offers an opinion in the first place.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155731581802507582006-08-16T08:33:00.000-04:002006-08-16T08:33:00.000-04:00Frumella,> is your point simply down with apologet...Frumella,<BR/><BR/>> is your point simply down with apologetics but up with sexism? Hence your recitation of shelo asani isha with joy?<BR/><BR/>When I wrote that I "happily" recite the blessing "Who has not made me a woman", I was actually speaking tongue-in-cheek. But since you asked me what my position is, I'll try to summarize it briefly here.<BR/><BR/>In short, I believe that you can choose to imbue age-old rituals with fresh meaning, and decide to make them relevant to you, who live many cultural revolutions apart from the original iniaters of the custom, to the point where the first intent is almost no longer to be perceived by the practicioner.<BR/><BR/>So, when I pray every morning, one of the following two possibilities may occur (the second, I am sorry to admit, is mure more frequent than the first) :<BR/><BR/>1. I try to focus on a positive idea (which may be close to the kiruv clowny stuff we are all familiar with)<BR/>2. I have no intention whatsoever. :)<BR/><BR/>But the key point is to me that, on those fortunate days when I am sufficiently awake to have a proper kavanah in mind, I am fully aware that I am not following in the footsteps of previous generations. As I said, it's a choice to re-interpret an ancient practice to make it consonant with modern values.<BR/><BR/>This is how I try to avoid sexism, be intellectually honest and stay "in the system".<BR/><BR/><BR/>Israluv,<BR/><BR/>Women have no mitsva to raise and teach kids. Men do. Your feeling to impact on the future of the Jewish People is admirable, but I know many frum women who experience a lack of validation precisely because they know that their actions are not sanctioned by the Torah. Their instincts tell them they're doing a holy task, but the halacha does not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155719302220724262006-08-16T05:08:00.000-04:002006-08-16T05:08:00.000-04:00"Contemporary Orthodoxy does not let women control..."Contemporary Orthodoxy does not let women control their own destiny or the direction of the Jewish people on a communal level."<BR/><BR/>-Woman of COURSE control the direction of the jewish people in a communal level - we RAISE, TEACH and GUIDE the children- the future of the community. <BR/><BR/>If raising children doesnt control the direction of the community - what does?IsraLuvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648093866007654849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155707262626607842006-08-16T01:47:00.000-04:002006-08-16T01:47:00.000-04:00Manny,Thanks."I'm surprised, however, that you did...Manny,<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>"I'm surprised, however, that you didn't mention gittin and agunot..."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's true. Though I have written about that elsewhere. Basically, I believe that there are rather easily applied Halachic remedies to be made that would keep such ill events from occurring. A mandatory Halachic pre-nup would be one easily applied idea. I know there are rabbis out there who are already insisting on them before they perform a marriage.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>"However, I find it far more demeaning to have apologists claim that the justification is women's nature."<BR/><BR/>Agreed. The actual laws may be one thing, but often the apologetics give a perfect example where the attempted cure is worse than the disease.<BR/><BR/><BR/>elf,<BR/><BR/>"I've been curious about your perspective on this issue for some time."<BR/><BR/>Wow, I'm flattered. I hadn't realized I had folks so interested in my views. ;-)<BR/><BR/>"Does this have any impact on your feelings about your decision to maintain an essentially Orthodox mode of practice? Do you think that having a wife or daughter might affect this decision?"<BR/><BR/>It's a tough issue for me. A lot of these issues that deal with how I'd raise my family complicates things.<BR/><BR/>Basically I have two options - to vote with my feet and leave or to stay and keep Observant Judaism from being wholly in the hands of conservative extremists. I am not in favor of abandoning a cause (especially considering where would I go?) so I'd rather stay in the house while protesting many of its rules. You can call me the loyal opposition. ;-)<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'll luck out and be an inspiration for change.<BR/><BR/>A lot of my future life though really depends on what my future wife is like, assuming I will have one. Whatever we end up doing will have to be some sort of compromise.<BR/><BR/>It also helps that some of these sexist affairs simply are not an issue in my Modern Orthodox community. Girls are taught Gemara. Separate entrances etc. are the exception and far from the rule. And so on.<BR/><BR/>But, still, you won't see an MO poseket. (Perhaps because MO tend to not go to poseks much in the first place...)<BR/><BR/>I do want to see change, but I am far from wanting to leave altogether.<BR/><BR/>"Along those lines, I think that your comment about being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen was unnecessarily demeaning."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you're right. I only meant it rhetorically though.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hayim,<BR/><BR/>"So, if you want to look at it that way, the obligation to keep the mitsvot are the yardstick by which we measure the inherent value of a Jewish life."<BR/><BR/>That is an interesting argument, indeed. I am sure most Orthodox women have never heard it though.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Frumella,<BR/><BR/>"Finally, if your decision is to remain within such a system, how do you justify it to yourself? I.e. how do you justify your priveleges and benefits that come, in part, at the expense of women."<BR/><BR/>I replied fuller earlier, but in a real sense, MO Jewish life is far less power oriented towards men as UO Judaism is. That's not to say it doesn't exist, it surely does, but that women are generally respected far more as individuals. Halacha is simply how we do things and women's lesser participation says nothing about their value as individuals or even religious actors. <BR/><BR/>I am not really happy with the way a lot of things go on in Orthodoxy, but I don't think leaving will fix them. I think there is room for change and I'd like to be at the forefront of that. In my own house, at least, I will hope to have gender equality as much as is possible.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155699180101777502006-08-15T23:33:00.000-04:002006-08-15T23:33:00.000-04:00oooh, my favorite topic :)!But no way I will read ...oooh, my favorite topic :)!<BR/><BR/>But no way I will read all of this exchange, it's much too long. So I will just point out an argument that I find very persuasive : there is a halacha that, faced with a situation where both a man and a woman are in a life-threatening situation, and it's impossible for whatever reason to save both (so one has to perish), a religious person is obligated to save the man and let the woman die. Why ? The man has more religious duties. His life is more precious.<BR/><BR/>So, if you want to look at it that way, the obligation to keep the mitsvot are the yardstick by which we measure the inherent value of a Jewish life.<BR/><BR/>Gives a whole new perspective on the idea of men and women having different duties because of different spiritual needs and females being more holistic etc.<BR/><BR/>Also, like everywhere else, it's important to keep an eye on historical development. Many women who are not bothered by the bracha "shelo assani isha" I happily recite every morning, thanks to the intense brainwashing they were subjected to (and I don't restrain myself to BTs), should go and have a look at the Baal HaTurim OH 35:6, where it clearly says that the twin blessing, "sheassani kirtsono", is a form of Tziduk Hadin.<BR/><BR/>Tziduk HaDin, I don't need to tell you, is what you recite when listening to very bad news, like death of a close family member. Here too women are required to accept their bitter fate.<BR/><BR/>Down with apologetics !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155692788598185072006-08-15T21:46:00.000-04:002006-08-15T21:46:00.000-04:00I've been curious about your perspective on this i...I've been curious about your perspective on this issue for some time. Does this have any impact on your feelings about your decision to maintain an essentially Orthodox mode of practice? Do you think that having a wife or daughter might affect this decision? <BR/><BR/>I basically agree with the opinion that you've expressed here, although I do agree with Mooks that our society undervalues homemakers. Along those lines, I think that your comment about being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen was unnecessarily demeaning. Raising children should be considered an respectable career for either gender.elfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16271905313295544312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155684614663629492006-08-15T19:30:00.000-04:002006-08-15T19:30:00.000-04:00I'll focus on the point of women being disqualifie...I'll focus on the point of women being disqualified as witnesses in Jewish law (except in particular cases where an eyd echad suffices. I accept it as fact, but I do not have to accept the rationales that many women offer - that women are too emotional to give objective testimony, etc. Even back in 7th grade, I found that more insulting to my intelligence than the halachic status itself. Kings also can't offer testimony - does anyone say it's because they think too holistically or emotionally? Two brothers can't give testimony together -- even if they are of the caliber of Moshe and Aharon. These are categories that are in place whether we like it or not. However, I find it far more demeaning to have apologists claim that the justification is women's nature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1155681834570512432006-08-15T18:43:00.000-04:002006-08-15T18:43:00.000-04:00Excellent exchange by the two of you.I'm surprised...Excellent exchange by the two of you.<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised, however, that you didn't mention gittin and agunot, and how this totally one-sided (only slightly mitigated by Rabbenu Gershom) system is rife with abuse. That would be near the top of my list in any discussion of gender differences in Orthodox Judaism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com