tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post3926652405682924619..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: The Aztec's National Revelation IIOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger166125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-81036355662953030612013-06-19T22:26:00.554-04:002013-06-19T22:26:00.554-04:00We do have to wonder about all extant versions of ...We do have to wonder about all extant versions of this story including the eagle but only this version including the god speaking. <br /><br />After all, what's more noteworthy? An eagle landing on a rock, or a god speaking to human beings? It's not the sort of detail likely to be left out of other versions by mistake. <br /><br />Most likely this was not part of the Aztec consciousness but rather a latter-day embellishment to an interesting story. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1830318208077912662013-05-26T04:13:52.768-04:002013-05-26T04:13:52.768-04:00I am a different anonymous. My opinion: Most of th...I am a different anonymous. My opinion: Most of the various “Pro Kuzari” posts seem convoluted and artificial. Also <br />FACT there is no empirical a evidence of Sinai event <br />FACT The Torah that states the event has questionable credibility. All the miracles, contradictions, apparent myths, magic etc: etc:<br /><br />Now we a have a story according to Yahweh’s chosen people. Roughly as follows.<br />That Yahweh intervened in human affairs, performs all kinds of miracles to free an enslaved tribe, then miracle upon miracle kept this tribe of hundreds of thousands of people in the desert alive for 40 years. Yahweh also came down to a mountain in a desert and made them the chosen people. <br /><br />We have two explanations<br /><br />A) The Exodus and Sinai story as essentially nation building myths. folk lore, propaganda...<br />B) That the story actually happened.<br /><br />The more reasonable explanation is the former. It explains the story in the context of human affairs and natural phenomena. The latter explanation implies some supernatural Yahweh god exists and he can do miracles that add a level of complexity that strains the imagination and creates more unsolved problems than it solves. Also see my comments at http://truetorah.blogspot.com/2012/05/part-1-archaeology.html?showComment=1369036031892#c534400231874616655<br />My opinion and I have no time to debate it, Figure it out yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-25186920717432348512012-10-22T23:56:11.807-04:002012-10-22T23:56:11.807-04:00There is no comparison between what happened to th...There is no comparison between what happened to the Israelites and this one sentence of the Aztecs. It's nice of you to try, but no cigar. You are comparing apples to peanuts. Keep trying!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-53682408287694765722012-04-30T22:22:11.420-04:002012-04-30T22:22:11.420-04:00S Edelman,
"That said, You are bringing up a...S Edelman,<br /><br />"That said, You are bringing up a great question - What does "survived" mean? Survive the event? Survive eternally?"<br /><br />In the verse from Devarim, it refers to surviving the event. This is where you get the famous drasha that the people actually died after the first commandment - and then were brought back to life. Then died again after the second - and were again revived by God. After this the Israelites begged to no longer experience God directly.<br /><br />Its a much later interpretation to use "survive" in the sense of continuing to exist as a people for thousands of years.<br /><br />In any event, using a prophesy for a nation's continued existence as evidence of truth is self-fulfilling. The only way for it to be shown false is if everyone for whom it would be meaningful would be dead! And at that point nobody would care. <br /><br />Regarding many of the other points you raise from simple to remember, there are actually rational explanations but it would be laborious to respond to in detail here. I have responses to most of them elsewhere o this blog.<br /><br />Regarding the Aztecs, they reportedly heard their god speak what was seen in quotes. Not sure why you think its important though.<br /><br />-OPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-56477870573693387792012-04-30T15:50:05.796-04:002012-04-30T15:50:05.796-04:00It says 'the Aztecs' heard him speak. What...It says 'the Aztecs' heard him speak. What did he say? Are there any Aztecs we can speak with who can tell us what he said?S Edelmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-35587561978078939472012-04-30T11:22:30.462-04:002012-04-30T11:22:30.462-04:00I don't know if the Aztecs collectively heard ...I don't know if the Aztecs collectively heard the voice from their stone idol,...but for the sake of argument let's say they did,...<br /><br />In all humility coming from me - whether you know it or not, and whether you like it or not, you are thinking EXACTLY like the Talmudic sages and great Jewish and Gentile thinkers. You are questioning anything you want to, and that is great! <br /><br />That said, You are bringing up a great question - What does "survived" mean? Survive the event? Survive eternally? <br /><br />Jer 31-34. Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divides the sea when its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is his name.<br />35. If those ordinances depart from before me, says the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.<br /><br />That said, I also refer you to Number 1 below from simpletoremember.com <br /><br /> The 7 Wonders of Jewish History by R. Moty Berger from AishAudio.com<br /><br />The Seven Wonders of Jewish History<br />1) Eternal Nation<br />2) Exile and Dispersion<br />3) Few In Number<br />4) Anti-Semitism<br />5) Light to the Nations<br />6) The Interdependency of the Jewish People and the Land of Israel<br />7) The Return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel<br /> Conclusion<br /><br /><br />1 It has been prophesied in the Torah that Jews would be an eternal nation: <br />"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and your descendants after you, throughout the generations. An eternal covenant to be your God, and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17-7).<br />This promise is repeated many times throughout the Torah (Leviticus 26:43, Deuteronomy 4:26-27, Deut. 28:63-64). And it has come true. Even though Jews did not have a homeland, a common language or a shared history (the factors that historians use to define a nation), they have remained a distinct people.<br /><br />Conclusion-<br />When we look at Jewish history, we see a history where the Jewish people have defied the laws of nature and the laws of history! We have survived and impacted this world though we have been thrown out of our land not once, but twice! We have impacted the world perhaps more than any other people in history -- the concepts of the value of human life, universal education, justice and equality, the importance of and goal of world peace (as opposed to glorifying war), the importance of a strong stable family as a basis for a moral foundation for society, individual and national responsibility for the world -- though we were beaten, killed and exiled from one nation to the other. Though few in number and spread to the four corners of the earth, we survived as a people, never assimilating into anonymity. Even our land, the Land of Israel, defied the laws of nature, only fertile when the Jewish people inhabited it.<br />Coincidence? Good luck? A roll of the dice? Perhaps --except that each and every phenomena was prophesied and predicted in the Torah hundreds and thousands of years before the events. Does it make you think that perhaps something is going on here? That perhaps there is a special relationship between the Almighty and the Jewish people?<br />The Almighty, the Jewish people and the Torah are intertwined. In the past 3,300 years there have been effort after effort --from within as well as from without -- to redefine and redirect our people. Each and every one has failed. If you wonder why, then perhaps the time has come to read the Torah and find out. The Torah is not only our heritage, it is the game plan for the Jewish people and the world.<br />by: Rabbi Kalman Packouz and Rabbi Asher Resnick<br />edited by: SimpleToRemember.comS Edelmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-30016278000661058802012-04-29T19:24:57.606-04:002012-04-29T19:24:57.606-04:00S Edelman,
So you accept that the Aztecs collecti...S Edelman,<br /><br />So you accept that the Aztecs collectively did indeed hear the voice of God?<br /><br />Interesting.<br /><br />Of course, the "survived" aspect of that verse is mere interpretation as it actually only refers to those Israelites who lived through the event, not referring to the lasting existence of the Jewish people. <br /><br />In a similar way, the Aztecs also survived that close encounter with their god.<br /><br />-OPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-56135511090054253392012-04-29T16:02:42.738-04:002012-04-29T16:02:42.738-04:00You ain't gonna learn what you don't want ...You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to knowS Edelmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-8375417057516328012012-04-29T14:06:16.471-04:002012-04-29T14:06:16.471-04:00Has a people ever heard the voice of G-d speaking ...Has a people ever heard the voice of G-d speaking from the midst of the fires as you have heard AND SURVIVED?' (Deut. 4:32-33) The Aztecs have not survivied. ... "The Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Persians rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greeks and Romans followed and made a vast noise, and they were gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, and have vanished.<br />The Jew saw them all, survived them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmaties, of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert but aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jews; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" --Mark Twain, September 1897 CHECK OUT THE FACTS!S Edelmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-43253926924781238772012-03-20T02:40:28.254-04:002012-03-20T02:40:28.254-04:00Nice try but it misses the mark. The above verses ...Nice try but it misses the mark. The above verses are taken out of context. I read the entire translation and huitzilopochtli is repeatedly referred to as both a priest and a god. Clearly the above verses are referring to a human. Gottliebs assertion still stands.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-46946944564845908232010-10-05T20:30:05.268-04:002010-10-05T20:30:05.268-04:00orthoprax,
of all the wondrous debate that has ta...orthoprax,<br /><br />of all the wondrous debate that has taken place on this blog on this topic since 2007, is there really any chance that someone's going to "convince" you that sinai indeed happened and it is indeed incumbent upon every jew to practice judaism, whatever that may mean?<br /><br />i mean at the end of the day, all the intellectual stuff just ain't really gonna do it right. you're either in or you're out. that's what emuna's all about. we're talking about our human minds attempting to bridge the gap between the finite and the infinite and everybody who has commented here knows full well that that just ain't ever gonna happen. only emuna can make that connection between the tower (of bavel?) of our knowledge and the infinite depth of the Infinite One.<br /><br />you really wanna know the truth? experience it. just like all the yiddin did at sinai, just like all the prophets did, just like all the mekublim have done and still do today. <br />there's chochmah and binah but until one experiences the ideas in the realm of da'as there's really nothing to talk about. da'as is knowing. we can all talk and talk and talk, but you'll never know until ya just KNOW.<br />sorry to disappoint but that's just the way the Abishter made this whole crazy spirituality thing work.<br /><br />i'd love to write more but i think it deserves an entire reading of all the posts before i could justifiably do such a thing.<br /><br />honestly, you got a great kop over there, and your determination for the truth is nothing less than admirable. hatzlacha rabba and a kol tuv!<br /><br />-yitzmo and the mozenators<br /><br />YES!YITZMOnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-22977878910246906482010-03-12T09:40:37.172-05:002010-03-12T09:40:37.172-05:00Orthoprax,
I misunderstood one of your points. I ...Orthoprax,<br /><br />I misunderstood one of your points. I apologize- you were saying that their legend, if given more time, could become a big dramatic event like Sinai.<br /><br />Well, perhaps- if given many hundreds of years, *perhaps* this myth would have become something more dramatic and significant.<br /><br />But that of course didn’t happen.<br /><br />The fact is- this legend we are looking at right now, the one you're providing, is not comparable to Sinai for a number of very good reasons (only one of which is the claim that it was a small, undramatic event). So until we find a new legend from a group that says what you suggest, then otherwise we ought to recognize that this Aztec legend simply is far too different from Sinai to draw any meaningful parallel.<br /><br />It does no good to give hypothetical, historical-revisionist scenarios. My claim is that once cannot fabricate such a central claim if it were false, and there's no shortage of peoples with legends, so it's a strange thing that no group's myths have evolved into a 'national' claim as the Hebrews did.<br /><br />So until we find one that does, I don’t think it’s relevant to hypothesize about what *could* have happened, if only history were different. <br /><br />As it stands now, this legend is not comparable to Sinai.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-78050434110190566352010-03-12T08:31:13.100-05:002010-03-12T08:31:13.100-05:00Orthoprax, I think you recognize there are just wa...Orthoprax, I think you recognize there are just way too many holes in their tradition (and your reading of it) to be a valid comparison to Sinai.<br /><br />You can say- well maybe their legend changed from that of a significant, dramatic national revelation, into what we have today. Well, maybe it did. But that recognizes that we have today reading your source is not a dramatic national revelation at all, is it? In fact, this entire event happened in 1325, only 700 years ago, and your source was only 300 years after! What a strange thing that no other recollections of this legend includes this detail (it's a very famous legent)- but they all suspiciously omit the god speaking part. <br /><br />I realize this is the source from an aztec himself, but of course you are reading a translation, and dare I say scholars have pored over his material and know what the claim is, rather than a casual 1-time reading, and assuming we understand a 400-year old, translated document on our own.<br /><br />This source, unlike Sinai, is not the source of the legend itself. It was written 300 years after the legend arose- it's merely a 'recollection' of the legends, so that would be a plausible reason why he includes a detail which no other retellings of the event have.<br /><br />Just to recap:<br /><br />1/ Your source never actually says the god spoke to all the people- it could easily be interpreted as referring to a specific group.<br /><br />2/ The other 99% of their legends relating to this god have him speaking to the priests, who then directed the message to them. It seems illogical to jump on this ambiguity and then make it part the only exception to the rule.<br /><br />3/ The scholarly sources I gave actually say their god spoke to a specific group of people (wise men and/or priests). It was only the priests who saw the eagle, and this allegedly happened at the same time, so it would logically be the same group.<br /><br />4/ The fact that, while the overall story is readily available in scholarly books, this particular detail about god speaking to everyone, is noticeably absent (unless it’s specifically discussing your source). That would seem to indicate that, far from being part of the national consciousness, this detail was simply not part of it, or at least, not among any of the major groups. It seems likely that, if #1-3 are false, the writer of your source was not representing the widespread legend in this detail, but perhaps interpreted the unknown speaker as god (since his text makes clear that no one saw or even heard anything to indicate anything special).<br /><br />5/ Even if all the above is false, it is immensely different from Sinai in that your source goes out of its way to minimize the event, both by mentioning it only briefly, and specifically saying that nothing in that moment left anyone able to identify whether it was a god or someone else who spoke. Again, the argument is that one cannot fabricate an event of national significance. Even if # 1,2,3,4 are false, this legend does not discuss the event itself (ie. The migration), but rather, a minor detail. The argument is you cannot fabricate an event, not a minor detail of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-15231619925720275982010-03-12T01:46:23.741-05:002010-03-12T01:46:23.741-05:00Anon,
"the tradition goes out of its way to ...Anon,<br /><br />"the tradition goes out of its way to say the people neither saw nor heard anything special or out of the ordinary that would identify it as god (as opposed to a priest). I argue one cannot fabricate the story of a central, significant event, not a minor detail which even their own records downplay."<br /><br />Sure, but this record was just a couple hundred years after the events in question. If it had not been written down and had been told over orally from one generation to the next do you not think embellishment and even changing of the story over time is implausible? Hardly, it is likely.<br /><br />This tale may mimic a young version of the Sinai story in terms of cultural evolution.<br /><br />"If this were a widely-accepted part of the legend, it would be highly unlikely that these sources don’t even mention it."<br /><br />It's hard to assess how widely-accepted this version was since the Aztecs had no text-based records and the Spaniards made a mostly successful campaign of destroying artifacts of Aztec culture. This is not the version pieced together by scholars, but from Tezozomac, grandson of Montezuma himself.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-60891448564160498022010-03-11T20:41:17.049-05:002010-03-11T20:41:17.049-05:00Sinai: The argument is that one cannot convince a ...Sinai: The argument is that one cannot convince a nation that all of their ancestors all experienced a significant, central event if such a thing did not happen. <br /><br />With the Aztecs, even if the source means what you say (god spoke to everyone), AND it this detail was widely believed (both of which appear unlikely), it still doesn’t alter the argument because it was clearly not portrayed as any significant event in itself: the tradition goes out of its way to say the people neither saw nor heard anything special or out of the ordinary that would identify it as god (as opposed to a priest). I argue one cannot fabricate the story of a central, significant event, not a minor detail which even their own records downplay.<br />In this tale, even according to your interpretation, the people really experienced nothing at all- a minor detail in the overall story. Sinai, conversely, the people are clearly alleged to have all heard god, identified it as Him, with the thunder, etc., and was constantly mentioned throughout Tanach and Jewish literature as a very significant event. That- you can’t fabricate.<br /><br />This text never clearly says he’s speaking to all the people.<br />In fact, the legend seems to be that the god spoke to a group of wise men at that moment, not the entire nation:<br />“Hearing Huitzilopochtli’s words, The council of wise men wept with relief and gratitude, realizing they had finally arrived at their rightful home…‘So our town is to be here…at last we have been worthy of our god. We are favored. We are blessed.’”<br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=7pmnDdrelwgC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=Huitzilopochtli+%2B+feathers+%2B+snake+%2B+bones+%2B+%22This+is+the+place%22&source=bl&ots=1J9th_Suf2&sig=qnHAIjxKZV8El0yuG6lmkEkEAv0&hl=en&ei=zGeZS5P-BYz4M73MrHs&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false<br />That would explain why the god’s words were not the most significant event- because he never spoke to the entire people.<br />In fact, most scholarly references of the legend don’t even have the part when the god spoke to everyone- it’s completely absent (pg. 43-44):<br /> http://books.google.ca/books?id=193tKPdM-ykC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=Huitzilopochtli+%2B+%22This+is+the+place%22&source=bl&ots=5sUteUzBbB&sig=Waf6Zncvhhx1HmjRMCSs902fCvY&hl=en&ei=nGyZS8XDGY7kNbao6Xo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false<br />If this were a widely-accepted part of the legend, it would be highly unlikely that these sources don’t even mention it.<br />So it appears that:<br />Your source does not say god spoke to everyone, but only a specific group. And even if this source does make that claim, it doesn’t appear that this detail was even believed among the people- since almost no sources even mention the god speaking to them, while they all mention the eagle. AND- even if it were widely believed, that would be very possible to exist falsely, because the tradition makes it clear the people experienced nothing unusual or special at all at that moment that would have been a ‘memorable’ and let them identify it as god (rather than a priest).<br />Even the eagle appearing to the people, as it reads in the text, was actually just to the priests, not everyone:<br />"The god's first shrine in the valley of Mexico was built on a spot where priests found an eagle poised upon a rock.”<br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZP_f9icf2roC&pg=PA477&dq=Huitzilopochtli+%2B+eagle+%2B+priests+%2B+rock&cd=5#v=onepage&q=Huitzilopochtli%20%20%20eagle%20%20%20priests%20%20%20rock&f=falseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-67834258639050828332010-02-21T11:59:01.980-05:002010-02-21T11:59:01.980-05:00Anon,
Just like the Israelites relied on Moses fo...Anon,<br /><br />Just like the Israelites relied on Moses for general directions of God's communication and only had one experience of national revelation, so too did the Aztec's story have only the one point where it's said that they all heard their god speak.<br /><br />'And the god called out to them, he said to them,<br />"O Mexicans, it shall be here!"<br />(But the Mexicans did not see who spoke).'Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-26368911337149376432010-02-21T11:11:17.321-05:002010-02-21T11:11:17.321-05:00Hi,
It appears the aztec claim is not that the go...Hi,<br /><br />It appears the aztec claim is not that the god spoke to everyone in a national revelation, but rather that the god spoke only to the priests, and then the priests communicated the message to the masses. So hardly a national revelatory claim.<br /><br />3 sources:<br /><br />1- http://books.google.ca/books?id=ooTup42hE5UC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=Huitzilopochtli+%2B+migration+%2B+spoke&source=bl&ots=ie0mgg2nWr&sig=Zx1s7rsgDJvjg6o6kmfFLKdUlqw&hl=en&ei=B5GAS5-1O8iWtgeJrpXWBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false<br /><br />See pg. 31-32: "Huitzilopochtli, later identified as a god of war, communicated directly with his high priests via dreams and profound trances, bestowing on them omens, prophecies and navigational tools to arrive at their promised land."<br /><br />2- "These priests voiced Huitzilopochtli’s oracular directions as to where the combined Mexica-Aztec tribe was next to travel."<br /><br />http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:nwdGQ7tLFugJ:www.aztlan.net/quest_for_aztlan.htm+Huitzilopochtli+%2B+priests+%2B+migration&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca<br /><br />3-" Huitziton, a person of great authority...heard in the branches of a tree the trilling of a small bird...struck at this, and communicating his impressions to another personage...they both induced the Aztecs to leave their country, interpreting the song as a mandate from divinity."<br /><br />See pg. 140<br /><br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=4OgUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=Huitzilopochtli+%2B+Tecpaltzin&source=bl&ots=WNyYc04Vfk&sig=HTassLRSOfBBUik9cGvBpejhVak&hl=en&ei=8IuAS_b-O8qutgfEoqyaBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false<br /><br />So it looks that the aztec belief was that their war god did not communicate to the people, but rather to the high priests, who then relayed the claimed divine message on to the masses. But according to these sources, the Aztecs did not have a legend that it was the god Huitzilopochtli who spoke directly to everybody. So we can see this is definitely not a national revelation from god, but rather a relayed message from priests. This, unlike a national revelatory claim, is exactly what we’d expect to see in legends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-5551622331297966072010-01-11T11:47:17.891-05:002010-01-11T11:47:17.891-05:00[url=http://sapresodas.net/][img]http://sapresodas...[url=http://sapresodas.net/][img]http://sapresodas.net/img-add/euro2.jpg[/img][/url]<br />[b]adobe web page software, [url=http://vioperdosas.net/]marketing software canada[/url]<br />[url=http://vioperdosas.net/]adobe picture software[/url] cheapest place to buy software software developers in canada<br />niche store software [url=http://sapresodas.net/]software source store[/url] cheap microsoft office professional<br />[url=http://vioperdosas.net/]academic software licensing[/url] how much will windows vista ultimate cost<br />[url=http://sapresodas.net/]educational software office[/url] student discount on computer software<br />cheap oem software adobe [url=http://vioperdosas.net/]coreldraw graphics suite x4[/url][/b]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-72264707401347260862009-12-31T05:28:53.607-05:002009-12-31T05:28:53.607-05:00[url=http://akreoplastoes.net/][img]http://rastimo...[url=http://akreoplastoes.net/][img]http://rastimores.net/img-add/euro2.jpg[/img][/url]<br />[b]buy microsoft office software, [url=http://akreoplastoes.net/]buy indesign software[/url]<br />[url=http://akreoplastoes.net/][/url] buy microsoft project software educational discounts on software<br />nero 6 ultra edition serial number [url=http://akreoplastoes.net/]cheap oem software review[/url] microsoft office 2007 enterprise free no trial<br />[url=http://rastimores.net/]microsoft office 2007 academic discount[/url] filemaker pro 10 upgrade<br />[url=http://rastimores.net/]kaspersky antivirus[/url] www macromedia com software flash<br />adobe software sale [url=http://akreoplastoes.net/]microsoft discounted software[/url][/b]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-91545927396268889392008-01-31T12:42:00.000-05:002008-01-31T12:42:00.000-05:00Nat,I don't think Aztecs had the same understandin...Nat,<BR/><BR/>I don't think Aztecs had the same understanding of what "history" is that you are implying. It was more of a flowing narrative about common myths than about a timeline of specific events.<BR/><BR/>I certainly presume this was a version known to the Aztecs, or what was left of them, though since the revelation doesn't add much to the actual course of events, it could easily be dropped in more colloquial versions - as we might read on wikipedia.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-60843837532381841502008-01-31T11:17:00.000-05:002008-01-31T11:17:00.000-05:00Was it ever even seen by the Aztecs and accepted b...Was it ever even seen by the Aztecs and accepted by the Aztecs as part of thier history? If it was accepted Aztec history, why wasn't the story of a national revelation included in other versions that we know the aztecs saw?natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-17613518962457065312008-01-31T04:11:00.000-05:002008-01-31T04:11:00.000-05:00Nat,First of all, it is a fallacy to assume that t...Nat,<BR/><BR/>First of all, it is a fallacy to assume that the Aztecs stopped observing their culture. They didn't and they even still exist today (though they mix in a dose of Catholicism). The text was written ~80 years after the fall of Tenochtitlan, but the Aztecs still maintained their traditions and their traditional beliefs for decades to come.<BR/><BR/>Now, Tezozomac was just one generation after the conquest, from very distinguished Aztec ancestry, and wrote with a specific interest for maintaing traditional Aztec stories in the minds of his people. I imagine that given the generaly illiteracy of the society, there was no one official version of the story and many versions coexisted, but I think Tezozomac is as good a source as we can get. The Spanish made full effort to basically destroy all Aztec religious artifacts so we have very little to work with directly from the pre-conquest period.<BR/><BR/>In any case, my point here is not just that this belief existed, but that since the very _claim_ of national revelation exists, it undermines R' Gottlieb's argument - as described elsewhere in the comments. Maybe this version wasn't a unanimously held view, but I don't believe Tezozomac, with his specific interest in maintaining traditional stories, would make it up from nothing.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-65210180723463049732008-01-30T11:45:00.000-05:002008-01-30T11:45:00.000-05:00Do you habve any evidence that a trext written one...Do you habve any evidence that a trext written one hundred years after the aztecs stopped observcing their own culture, and only idsciovered twoo hundred years later, was ever actually accepterd by the <BR/>Aztecs as therir history? According to Wikipedia, their where other version written after the conquest that do not have a national revelation, just a eagle eating a bird.natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-9280119911832251662007-10-12T12:20:00.000-04:002007-10-12T12:20:00.000-04:00Thank you for your most valuable input. Your comme...Thank you for your most valuable input. Your comments are very important to me.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-60965796401018625992007-10-12T05:37:00.000-04:002007-10-12T05:37:00.000-04:00"Maybe it's because you're a liar? Who then contin..."Maybe it's because you're a liar? Who then continues to lie while trying to cover his lies by pointing to my reaction to his lies? Hmm."<BR/><BR/>I consider name calling to be emotional... I can also call you names but then that would be leaving the topic at hand.<BR/><BR/>"Consistency. Make sure the given message doesn't include gross absurdity. Physical evidence would also be great. Several different references to cross-check would be excellent - the more the better. Any of the above would be helpful."<BR/><BR/>You can find this in Judaism.<BR/><BR/>"Essentially, I think your site's argument is _so_ weak that I don't even feel a need to argue against it. For comparison, would you truly waste your time and get into an argument with a person who believes the Earth is flat?"<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your sharing with us your "rigorous" "scholarly" methodology of ascertaining truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com