tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post6596731570400035047..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: Members of a Different TribeOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-76811965345197232962007-09-10T18:48:00.000-04:002007-09-10T18:48:00.000-04:00Woodrow,I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously...Woodrow,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously different factors in the respective histories lead to different attrition rates and therefore attemping an equation between them is fallacious, but neverthless to find commonalities is perfectly alright.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-47643326266691541442007-09-10T11:44:00.000-04:002007-09-10T11:44:00.000-04:00Attempts to compare Jewish survival to American In...Attempts to compare Jewish survival to American Indian religions' survival are flawed, because:<BR/><BR/>1. a lot more Jews have survived than Indians, thanks to smallpox wiping out lots of tribes;<BR/><BR/>2. Because each tribe was not very big in the first place, and each (I am guessing) had a slightly different religion, Indian tribal religions probably had so few followers that they never developed the kind of critical mass necessary to survive decimation;<BR/><BR/>3. Low levels of literacy reduce the chances of a religion surviving- no holy book, no intergenerational transmission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-48695245898073317362007-09-02T17:51:00.000-04:002007-09-02T17:51:00.000-04:00"while, yes, there is a distinctive Jewish look"Th..."while, yes, there is a distinctive Jewish look"<BR/><BR/>There isn't just one Jewish look, there are several.<BR/><BR/>"there are some blond-haired blue-eyed people out there who are just as Jewish as you and me."<BR/><BR/>It isn't just a matter of whether they're blond or dark. There are blond Jews who look distinctively Jewish, and brunette Jews who could easily pass for goyim.<BR/><BR/>It's interesting that O. mentions Russians, because in my experience many of the Jews from Russia look distinctly Russian.<BR/><BR/>There has been some mixing between Jews and members of the host countries over the centuries, whether through intermarriage, conversion, rape, or other factors. How substantial it has been is still the subject of debate among geneticists, although the recent evidence suggests that the mixing rate has generally been quite low.<BR/><BR/>And Russian is just one example of an ethnic group with a very distinct appearance. Most European ethnicities are not easy to tell apart. You can usually tell a Northern European from a Southern European, but it gets very hazy when you break it down to nations. That's not to suggest that there isn't, say, an Italian look, but these things tend to break down with individuals. I bet if we ran a test, where we showed photographs of various people and you had to guess their ethnic origin, you would guess wrong a substantial amount of the time.<BR/><BR/>I actually do know of such a test, though it concerns Asian ethnicities, which most Westerners are not as familiar with, and it's an attempt to address the belief that Asians all look alike. Here is the URL:<BR/><BR/>http://www.alllooksame.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-41590981732285493142007-09-02T14:55:00.000-04:002007-09-02T14:55:00.000-04:00Miri,"Yeah but we did assimilate, culturally, reli...Miri,<BR/><BR/>"Yeah but we did assimilate, culturally, religously, and some of us biologically!"<BR/><BR/>I'm talking about over the course of centuries, not in the brief period after emancipation but before the Holocaust.<BR/><BR/>"while, yes, there is a distinctive Jewish look, there are some blond-haired blue-eyed people out there who are just as Jewish as you and me. Which is to say, that just because someone doesn't look Jewish doesn't mean he isn't and just because someone does look Jewish doesn't mean he is (could just be the father.)"<BR/><BR/>Of course.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-61059855906132608252007-09-02T14:45:00.000-04:002007-09-02T14:45:00.000-04:00Yeah but we did assimilate, culturally, religously...Yeah but we did assimilate, culturally, religously, and some of us biologically! whatever; the fact of the matter is, I was never sure my point was strong enough to really be argued and now I've lost track of it completely, so I'm giving this one up. I would like to mention several things however.<BR/><BR/>1)while, yes, there is a distinctive Jewish look, there are some blond-haired blue-eyed people out there who are just as Jewish as you and me. Which is to say, that just because someone doesn't look Jewish doesn't mean he isn't and just because someone does look Jewish doesn't mean he is (could just be the father.)<BR/><BR/>2)This goes for Russians and British people as well. I have a friend that you'd swear was Russian, but there isn't even a hint of it in her ancestry. <BR/>Also, being able to tell people's national origin based on appearance has a lot more to do with the wardrobe then you'd think.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-54411433929222568672007-09-02T06:45:00.000-04:002007-09-02T06:45:00.000-04:00Miri,"second, I wasn't talking about Hitler. I was...Miri,<BR/><BR/>"second, I wasn't talking about Hitler. I was talking mostly about the late nineteenth century scentists, philosophers, and sociologists like Darwin and Nietzsche, not to mention the writers and artists of the time; all of whom preceded Hitler and his movements."<BR/><BR/>Ok, so like I said - you mix a rising sense of nationalism with genetics and you'll almost naturally come to the conclusion that some groups living among you are racially inferior and should not be permitted to mix with the national race.<BR/><BR/>The fact that this inferior sense was pinned on Jews _not_ because of their looks really has little to do with it. But even with that being the case, I do still stand by the fact that there is a "Jewish look" (at least among some sub-populations) that has nothing to do with the classical garb or beard.<BR/><BR/>All major ethnic groups in Europe have an identifiable look to them if you are sensitive enough to note them. I can tell a Brit from a Russian just by looking - even though they are both entirely white.<BR/><BR/>"The Jews were not a political enemy..."<BR/><BR/>Obviously that is a matter of opinion (Hitler would disagree). Check this out: http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa022100a.htm<BR/><BR/>My point with the other groups was that people who apparently look very much alike still deemed the other as racially inferior. It's not always about the looks.<BR/><BR/>The Jews only seem so unique in this case because our history is indeed unusual. Do you have many other examples of a people living in other lands for so long a time and, while being of significant number, not assimilating with the rest of the population either culturally, religiously or even biologically?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-43337689746269066022007-09-02T04:56:00.000-04:002007-09-02T04:56:00.000-04:00ok, first of all, "Tobie" was actually me, I forgo...ok, first of all, "Tobie" was actually me, I forgot to sign out of her account before posting. sorry.<BR/><BR/>second, I wasn't talking about Hitler. I was talking mostly about the late nineteenth century scentists, philosophers, and sociologists like Darwin and Nietzsche, not to mention the writers and artists of the time; all of whom preceded Hitler and his movements. True, Nazi ideolgy was based on their work, but I wasn't actually talking about the Nazis. As you said, all that stuff goes back way earlier.<BR/><BR/>Third; your typically assimilated, educated, cultured, secular German Jew didn't look particularly different from your average German. I know the Chassidim were distinctive. I'm talking about everyone else. <BR/><BR/>Fourth, I'm not sure exactly if the examples you bring are quite the same thing; people always tried to genocide their political enemies because that's how you wage war. The Jews were not a political enemy, like the Japanese-Chinese and British-Irish conflicts that you mention; and as to the Croats and the Serbs, all those things were post WWII, so you couldn't exactly cite them as a historical precedent for what hapened to the Jews in Europe. I don't know. I'm not really sure that my example was different enough to really warrant this argument, I just think it might not quite have been the same thing.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-80560965625394699202007-09-02T01:51:00.000-04:002007-09-02T01:51:00.000-04:00"What would constitute an abnormal historical proc..."What would constitute an abnormal historical process?" [Kylopod]<BR/><BR/>"Miracles, inexplicable events. Singularities that do not follow from previous events. Basically things that just don't add up." [Orthoprax]<BR/><BR/>It's the patterns, not the particulars, that call for an explanation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-30765305489634286912007-09-01T21:57:00.000-04:002007-09-01T21:57:00.000-04:00Tobie,Hitler hated Slavs too and also identified t...Tobie,<BR/><BR/>Hitler hated Slavs too and also identified them as an inferior race even though they look awfully similar to me. European Jews, as a general rule, are identifiable as distinct from your average German. But the physical differences weren't the real issue. <BR/><BR/>The concept of racial hygiene did not start with Hitler, but has roots in Germany (and all over the Western world, really) from before the start of the century. The concept of a nation as a distinct cultural group with a common heredity, the Volk in Germany, meant that non-assimilating peoples were a potential fifth column. And Jews, being the largest and most identifiable of those groups in Europe, were targetted as an especially large threat.<BR/><BR/>Add onto that the scientific concept of genetics and you almost naturally come upon the idea of eugenics where your nation is genetically distinct and intermarriage ruins its purity.<BR/><BR/>These same concepts were being thrown around all over Europe but it was only in Germany where it came to such a huge political victory when Hitler came to power.<BR/><BR/><BR/>You should also learn more from history. The British considered the Irish as an inferior race. The Japanese and Chinese have each considered the other an inferior race. Can you tell a Serb from a Croat from a Bosnian just by looking? I can't. And indeed, just like Jews, the Roma (aka Gypsies) were victimized all over Europe.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-24369617281123055502007-09-01T13:53:00.000-04:002007-09-01T13:53:00.000-04:00Orthoprax-"Hate sticks around even after the forme...Orthoprax-<BR/>"Hate sticks around even after the former reasons for the hate no longer apply. Indeed, the feeling was so prevalent that intellectuals had to find some new justification for their antisemitic convictions. "<BR/><BR/>Yes, I know. But my point is, I think that that was the first time in recorded history that racism took that particular form. I don't think there was a historical precedent for intellectuals to say that other fellow intellectuals, who look more or less like everyone else (similar coloring etc) were genetically inferior and should be expelled or exterminated. For being genetically inferior,I mean. All other instances for accusation of racial inferiority generally occured in situations where the supposed inferior race was socially segregated from the superior, and usually also were drastically different looking. At least as far as I know. So then what...this is a mutation of a prior historical occurence? I could see that, I guess...Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-88075499779666227072007-08-31T17:46:00.000-04:002007-08-31T17:46:00.000-04:00Anon,"The Europeans seem to be practising a very r...Anon,<BR/><BR/>"The Europeans seem to be practising a very real Doube standard aganist Israel. They might talk about Darfur, but they are calling for boycotts and economic sanctions against Israel.<BR/>Again, a doubel standard."<BR/><BR/>Ok. And therefore what? Obviously I don't agree with their perspective, but I do understand the historical means by which they came to be.<BR/><BR/>"If altruism is the result of some development out of kin selection then why do people sometimes help total strangers, people they know trhey are not related to."<BR/><BR/>The argument would be, like I said several times already, that it's a misfiring of an engaged behavior. Similar to how parents will adopt children who share no genetic familiality. We have deep urges that we cannot generally overcome.<BR/><BR/>"Moreover, if altruims has a biological basis, then why are so many people not altruistic? If it is gentically based, why are some people missing the altruism gene? Or why is it less devloped in some people tah in others?"<BR/><BR/>The argument would simply be that society does not require everyone to be equally altruistic in order to function. Darwinism works on the lowest common denominator - not the ideal. Some people are just more altruistic like some people are more prone to anger. It's natural variation.<BR/><BR/>I would like to make it clear, however, that I think evolutionary psychology is a deep well that you can fit lots of stuff into - including stuff that really shouldn't be there. Although I know the arguments that Dawkins, for example, might give - I do not think that every aspect of human behavior can be understood from a strictly biological or evolutionary perspective.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-67247536521986094032007-08-31T14:54:00.000-04:002007-08-31T14:54:00.000-04:00"Moreover, if altruism has a biological basis, the..."Moreover, if altruism has a biological basis, then why are so many people not altruistic?"<BR/><BR/>Damn, that's a good question. <BR/><BR/>Again, I recommend the Collins' interview (CBC Tapestry) for a perspective on why you need as much faith to buy into Sam Harris/Richard Dawkins evolutionary argument as you do the religious one re: altruism.Avrum68https://www.blogger.com/profile/00035235825142137265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-32282930544815313312007-08-31T14:38:00.000-04:002007-08-31T14:38:00.000-04:00Dear Orthoprax:The Europeans seem to be practising...Dear Orthoprax:<BR/><BR/>The Europeans seem to be practising a very real Doube standard aganist Israel. They might talk about Darfur, but they are calling for boycotts and economic sanctions against Israel.<BR/>Again, a doubel standard.<BR/><BR/>If altruism is the result of some development out of kin selection then why do people sometimes help total strangers, people they know trhey are not related to. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, if altruims has a biological basis, then why are so many people not altruistic? If it is gentically based, why are some people missing the altruism gene? Or why is it less devloped in some people tah in others?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-64318800762943342292007-08-31T13:44:00.000-04:002007-08-31T13:44:00.000-04:00Anon,"If normal historical procesess are the expla...Anon,<BR/><BR/>"If normal historical procesess are the explanation for antisemitism, then why do I would expect eh European countrie sto say something about the atrocities in Darfur commited by Moslims, the same people who are bombing buses in London, and airporst in Scotland. That isn't happening. the British are bashing Israel for defending itself. Why the double standard?"<BR/><BR/>What are you talking about? European countries say plenty about the atrocities in Darfur. But Israel has been a hot issue there for a lot longer.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>"The adoptation of an orphan that you mentioned is not exactly the same as a soldier jumping on a hand grenade."<BR/><BR/>I know...it was an anology of process, not of kind.<BR/><BR/>" soldier throws himself on a hand grenade knowing it will explode and kill him, and remove his genes from the gene pool. If it is the result of socialization, how did this socailization get started in the first place?"<BR/><BR/>People used to live in small groups where everyone was related and ensuring one another's safety was good for the shared genes' continued survival - even at the expense of individuals. That would be the biological basis for kin selection.<BR/><BR/>Dawkins would say that modern day society is a confusion of that basic social structure as your neighbors are no longer likely to be related to you but you still have drives to help them.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Miri,<BR/><BR/>"What about the whole biological strain of antisemitism that arose in post-enlightenment Europe? Why were the intellectual, social, and ecenomical elite of Europe so frightened of us that they had to come up with another reason to hate us after religion didn't mean anything to them anymore?"<BR/><BR/>Hate sticks around even after the former reasons for the hate no longer apply. Indeed, the feeling was so prevalent that intellectuals had to find some new justification for their antisemitic convictions. <BR/><BR/>The rise of nationalism and ideals of national purity brought forth new disfavor for the stateless, non-assimilating peoples who lived among them. Most obviously - that would be the Jews.<BR/><BR/> <BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>"Why is it that the Moslims hate Jews as well, even more than they hate other groups? That can't be the result of Christian theology?"<BR/><BR/>Yes and no. Modern Moslim antisemitism is based around Israel, but it collected most of its material from the ample supply of antisemitic lore from Europe - which was mostly religious in origin.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-14354985804419120262007-08-31T12:01:00.000-04:002007-08-31T12:01:00.000-04:00Why is it that the Moslims hate Jews as well, even...Why is it that the Moslims hate Jews as well, even more than they hate other groups? That can't be the result of Christian theology?<BR/>And why the double standard? Moslims can kill Christians in Darfur, and nobody not even Christians care?<BR/><BR/>Why such an extreme double standard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-40874619163184076782007-08-31T11:01:00.000-04:002007-08-31T11:01:00.000-04:00orthoprax-"And? While the reasons for not liking J...orthoprax-<BR/>"<BR/>And? While the reasons for not liking Jews changed in different places and times there was always some rational historical means by which it came to be."<BR/><BR/>What about the whole biological strain of antisemitism that arose in post-enlightenment Europe? Why were the intellectual, social, and ecenomical elite of Europe so frightened of us that they had to come up with another reason to hate us after religion didn't mean anything to them anymore?Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-44638473656307385172007-08-31T09:11:00.000-04:002007-08-31T09:11:00.000-04:00The adoptation of an orphan that you mentioned is ...The adoptation of an orphan that you mentioned is not exactly the same as a soldier jumping on a hand grenade. In the case of a cowbird or a cuckoe, the invader lays an egg iin the host's nest. The host thinks it is taking care of its own young. A soldier throws himself on a hand grenade knowing it will explode and kill him, and remove his genes from the gene pool. If it is the result of socialization, how did this socailization get started in the first place?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-68515267772704422552007-08-31T09:05:00.000-04:002007-08-31T09:05:00.000-04:00If normal historical procesess are the explanation...If normal historical procesess are the explanation for antisemitism, then why do I would expect eh European countrie sto say something about the atrocities in Darfur commited by Moslims, the same people who are bombing buses in London, and airporst in Scotland. That isn't happening. the British are bashing Israel for defending itself. Why the double standard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-682412002688621932007-08-30T22:49:00.000-04:002007-08-30T22:49:00.000-04:00"These children were pulled from their homes and w..."These children were pulled from their homes and were forbidden to practice their traditional culture, wear their traditional clothing and had to cut their hair."<BR/><BR/>I'm wondering if the Indians ever did this to each other. CF: the Tehran Children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-50898515356454362792007-08-30T20:17:00.000-04:002007-08-30T20:17:00.000-04:00"The distinction I often make, however, is that th..."The distinction I often make, however, is that the sparks of divine wisdom are those which humanity discovered - rather than which God personally handed over."<BR/><BR/>Y'know, I never understood what Freud was treating when he was trying to cure "hysteria". I thought: "Is he refering to my crazy Auntie Goldstein?". Alas, I read a wonderful description of what hysteria was in an intro book to Self Psychology. Hysteria disappeared as Vicotrian culture faded away, and as sexual mores became more liberal. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps the conditions were right, or ripe, by God's standards (whatever that means) to be more direct, more obvious to Abraham than to Avrum i.e. me. And perhaps, like hysteria, as the times changed, God's literalness did as well. <BR/><BR/>Regardless, we agree on this matter. All we have is sparks.Avrum68https://www.blogger.com/profile/00035235825142137265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-68537474091123930412007-08-30T19:50:00.000-04:002007-08-30T19:50:00.000-04:00Kylopod,"What would constitute an abnormal histori...Kylopod,<BR/><BR/>"What would constitute an abnormal historical process?"<BR/><BR/>Miracles, inexplicable events. Singularities that do not follow from previous events. Basically things that just don't add up.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Miri,<BR/><BR/>"I'm not sure I agree with that. Antisemitism hasn't been the same animal from beginning to end, its gone through many many changes over time"<BR/><BR/>And? While the reasons for not liking Jews changed in different places and times there was always some rational historical means by which it came to be. It makes sense that Antiochus would be against the Jews, just as it makes sense why the Romans would be and the Christians and modern Muslims, etc.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-14930504454029521332007-08-30T17:52:00.000-04:002007-08-30T17:52:00.000-04:00Orthoprax-"he point, again, is that the spread of ...Orthoprax-<BR/>"he point, again, is that the spread of antisemitic sentiments follows normal historical processes and does not require any special divine control to come about."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I agree with that. Antisemitism hasn't been the same animal from beginning to end, its gone through many many changes over time...whether that's only the case with the Jews, or whether we only see it with Jews because we've been around longest and we haven't had time to see it develop that way with other ethnic groups is debatable, however it's not quite as simple as "normal historical processes..."Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-61425074558906523992007-08-30T17:41:00.000-04:002007-08-30T17:41:00.000-04:00I'm not sure what you mean by "normal historical p...I'm not sure what you mean by "normal historical processes." What would constitute an abnormal historical process?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-23392827130502529752007-08-30T16:52:00.000-04:002007-08-30T16:52:00.000-04:00Avrum,"So perhaps, after all the deconstructing is...Avrum,<BR/><BR/>"So perhaps, after all the deconstructing is complete, we're left with the possibility that the social, political, legal, communal aspects of Judaism are small sparks of divinity at work."<BR/><BR/>Personally I'm not that uncomfortable with that kind of conclusion. The distinction I often make, however, is that the sparks of divine wisdom are those which humanity discovered - rather than which God personally handed over.<BR/><BR/>Though, if God is the source of all things, then that distinction may be one with no difference and is only commentary on how God goes about His business.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>"How do you explain the fact that people expect more from Jews? People don't have a problem when gentilesd make money. Only Jews."<BR/><BR/>That's antisemitism. I have several posts on the subject elsewhere on my blog. The point, again, is that the spread of antisemitic sentiments follows normal historical processes and does not require any special divine control to come about.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"If altruism is the result of a Darwinian process, then why do some people, motivated by altruism, feel the need to reush into a vrunign building to save a child, or jump into a rvier to save someone from drowing. Why do soldiers jump on live grenades to save their comrades. Why do people donate kidneys to save a stranger? Darwinsm would allow any of this."<BR/><BR/>Dawkins would say that it's due to a misdirection of a more prototypical process of kin selection - analogous to Darwinian urges for reproduction being misdirected by adopting parents.<BR/><BR/>However, I am not fully convinced of this. I typically contend that socialization and personal history (and perhaps even individual autonomy) play a more significant role in moral practice than do fundamental biological phenomena.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-32309391660314934952007-08-30T11:39:00.000-04:002007-08-30T11:39:00.000-04:00"If altruism is the result of a Darwinian process,..."If altruism is the result of a Darwinian process, then why do some people..."<BR/><BR/>Francis Collins agrees with you. He elaborates on this very point here:<BR/>http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/archives/2007/082607.htmlAvrum68https://www.blogger.com/profile/00035235825142137265noreply@blogger.com