tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post6717321556222732173..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: On Fasting and the Place of JudaismOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-65122337126857151912007-03-10T19:15:00.000-05:002007-03-10T19:15:00.000-05:00Alex,I don't disagree with you - directly. The poi...Alex,<BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with you - directly. The point is, even mainstream rabbinic sources would explain the link between fasting and redemption as a means to change characters and hence _merit_ God's grace. <BR/><BR/>Fasting, as an act in itself, is not meaningful to anyone. And, in fact, Isaiah strongly condemned such fasts. See above.<BR/><BR/>The difference between Esther and I is simply that I don't think "God's grace" works that way. Though, even within the story, she wasn't fasting in order that Haman change his mind, but that she'd be able to get Achashveirosh on her side.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hrafnkel,<BR/><BR/>"and personal improvement. So basically what Daniel said, without the repentance talk."<BR/><BR/>As I see it, repentance is just another word for personal improvement.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-52493090434851442622007-03-09T18:00:00.000-05:002007-03-09T18:00:00.000-05:00"Fasting is a means to repent which leads to impro..."Fasting is a means to repent which leads to improved character and better behavior which will lead to the betterment of society at large."<BR/><BR/>I don't think that Esther thought that Haman would change his mind just because the Jews would have better behavior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-42085765647063125162007-03-09T01:40:00.000-05:002007-03-09T01:40:00.000-05:00Alex,The point you made is about repentance, that'...Alex,<BR/><BR/>The point you made is about repentance, that's fine, and no, I didn't forget - in fact I've accepted it and built on it. With a twist. <BR/><BR/>You may see fasting as a means to get on God's good side as if God is a being who'll come and intervene in human affairs. I don't see it that way. Fasting is a means to repent which leads to improved character and better behavior which will lead to the betterment of society at large. God doesn't react to human activity here, but is implicit in the details.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-32631619243448268002007-03-09T00:51:00.000-05:002007-03-09T00:51:00.000-05:00Since Miri mentioned the commemoration of Esther's...Since Miri mentioned the commemoration of Esther's fast, I can add (like I did in a recent post) -- "What about Esther's fast itself?"<BR/><BR/>When you write: "..the point of fasting is ... as a means to change your way of thinking. It is to understand why you fast and to grow in character and spirituality (whatever that means exactly)." I think the purpose there was to get God to overturn a decree.<BR/><BR/>Oh, hey, I just clicked on the link you gave and found my old, similar, comment. (To which you replied, "fair enough")(Totally forgot about that, didn't we?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-47944365686537741272007-03-08T19:56:00.000-05:002007-03-08T19:56:00.000-05:00"understand why you fast" is a little vague as a r..."understand why you fast" is a little vague as a reference to commemoration as it could mean, really, anything. but ok. I'm sure you've covered this topic thoroughly.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-3173805769758567492007-03-08T19:31:00.000-05:002007-03-08T19:31:00.000-05:00In fact, I wrote this some time ago: http://orthop...In fact, I wrote this some time ago: <BR/><BR/>http://orthoprax.blogspot.com/2005/10/why-do-jews-fast.html<BR/><BR/>and this:<BR/><BR/>http://orthoprax.blogspot.com/2005/08/well-warranted-affliction.htmlOrthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-10157879860854176622007-03-08T19:28:00.000-05:002007-03-08T19:28:00.000-05:00Miri,Yes, those are additional reasons. I had impl...Miri,<BR/><BR/>Yes, those are additional reasons. I had implied historical commemoration when I said 'understand why you fast.'<BR/><BR/>The goals do not conflict.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-86154349673472552802007-03-08T18:53:00.000-05:002007-03-08T18:53:00.000-05:00right. um also frequently in commemoration for stu...right. um also frequently in commemoration for stuff. like the three days the Jews fasted before Esther went to Achashveirosh. or, alternately, the Temple burning. stuff like that.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.com