tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post7056179537132826355..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: Nihil and VoidOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-20206809547149128122009-05-03T11:25:00.000-04:002009-05-03T11:25:00.000-04:00"Meaning" is emotional. Religious or other ideolog..."Meaning" is emotional. Religious or other ideological concepts are the theme, the metaphor and the structure by which we organize and express it. Strip that and you are left with a shapeless vague blob for meaning, but if you had it before hopefully it will come back.kisaritahttp://www.kisarita.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-1652793205062210432009-05-03T11:23:00.000-04:002009-05-03T11:23:00.000-04:00i've read the quran in original and translation. q...i've read the quran in original and translation. quite a boring book, i couldn't even finish it. pretty much all it does is refer back to the bible. so much for the differences between judaism and islam.<br /><br />The Meaning of Life-kisaritahttp://www.kisarita.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-36304409763730137022009-04-29T21:10:00.000-04:002009-04-29T21:10:00.000-04:00Here are some sites that will point you to the arc...Here are some sites that will point you to the archeological evidence that exists in israel. It in no way proves that the bible is wrong. However, there is some evidence that looks promising on the validity of the bible. <br />http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/israel-archaeology.htm<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mckenzie-david.html?_r=2<br /><br />http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article.php?article_id=10882<br /><br />https://www.amazines.com/article_detail.cfm/677542?articleid=677542&title=Hebrew%2Carchaeology%2CKing%2CDavid%2COld%2CTestament<br /><br />http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081121-biblical-city.html<br /><br />http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081103-hebrew-text_2.htmlE-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-22698357008754814242009-04-29T01:01:00.000-04:002009-04-29T01:01:00.000-04:00Salmo,
I'd take you a bit more seriously if you w...Salmo,<br /><br />I'd take you a bit more seriously if you weren't a Holocaust denier...Iblisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-64964170130756680282009-04-27T23:40:00.000-04:002009-04-27T23:40:00.000-04:00OP,
"But the existential dilemma comes to a head ...OP,<br /><br />"But the existential dilemma comes to a head with regard to things that may not directly effect me. Personal ambition is a strong driving force but it doesn't make me care much ... It's a spirit breaker that makes it difficult to enjoy any ephemeral joy or success."<br /><br />Pardon some warm fuzzies here: God or no God, it feels good to do good, and it feels good to feel good. Sometimes our human mind overthinks itself to its own harm. Even without a grand scheme, isn't it wonderful that altruism and simple kindness is common? Because this is human nature, and following it makes people happy. You can be disfunctional and quite unhappy, but when in doubt, why not make a cheap leap of faith and choose kindness and happiness. <br /><br />I've discussed before that I think faith is an important aspect of life and belief. I consider faith just a different kind of logic, similar to the effect of emotions on logic and decision making process. <br /><br />Even on something as stupid as buying a pair of shoes, logic might dictate the cheaper more robust pair, but you might just have your heart set on the Nike's, and you won't ever enjoy the other pairJeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-58015524562100239352009-04-26T23:00:00.000-04:002009-04-26T23:00:00.000-04:00Orthoprax-
You are right, I just didn't want to h...Orthoprax-<br /><br />You are right, I just didn't want to have to spend hours proving him wrong. I am not going to bother anymore with him. One thing though, thi Muslim guy that says the Earth is flat is a respected "scientist" among the Muslims. A "lubob might claim something, but he is in no way regarded as a scientist or expert, that was my point.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-76541076804320784072009-04-26T19:36:00.000-04:002009-04-26T19:36:00.000-04:00E-man,
To be honest, I see that you made a lot of...E-man,<br /><br />To be honest, I see that you made a lot of claims but you didn't offer much in the way of facts. Giving some random example of a Muslim 'proving' the world is flat is meaningless, just like you could no doubt find some Lubab who 'proves' that the sun revolves around the earth. You can't use that as being indicative of the religious text or of mainstream belief.<br /><br /><br />Archeologically there are a number of issues that are strong problems for the traditional understanding. These issues are not limited to problems of just absence of evidence. For a full understanding you cannot just throw up a link of one guy who's conclusion you favor. You should go and study the issues on your own.<br /><br />You cannot say that because the Aztec's revelation happened on a different continent and at a different century it therefore is without relevance. Those are not meaningful distinctions and I think you know that.<br /><br />Nor is it a meaningul response to simply call the other person's assertions false without follow up. You may be right, but that hardly amounts to a meaningful debate.<br /><br />Now don't get me wrong, I think Shalmo is a jerk, his facts selectively chosen, his conclusions biased as hell and his methods preclusive to real debate because he throws a thousand different issues at you at once and goes off on a hundred tangents at will, but he does at least deal in debatable points. <br /><br />Personally I hardly think it's even worth discussing issues with him at all but if you're going to do it you can't do it half-assed.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-76305724812044466132009-04-25T22:19:00.000-04:002009-04-25T22:19:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-19714833939476626642009-04-25T04:02:00.000-04:002009-04-25T04:02:00.000-04:00Since law school is calling me, this will be my la...Since law school is calling me, this will be my last reply<br /><br />E-man:<br /><br />You are hopeless! I'm curious how you would feel if I went to white supremists like David Duke to learn about what Jews are upto. <br /><br />The arabs and the iranians knew the world was round long long before Islam came around, so people who make all these conspiracy theories about what the Quran says don't realize how ridiculous their claims end up being.<br /><br />That site is run by a notorious liar named David Wood, who just recently got his ass kicked by Baradawi.<br /><br />And just to let you know these same christians that you are citing also distort verses like Isaiah 7:14 (claiming falsely that almah means virgin in reference to Jesus), etc etc in order to convert Jews to Christianity. So I would think twice before using them. Try www.call-to-monotheism.com for refutations for their stuff<br /><br />Baal:<br /><br />"You're funny. I'm not going into that, but you're being foolish. If a religion like Mormonism can catch on, a mere 100 years ago, all bets are off 1500 years ago."<br /><br />Hardly! The reason so many contemporary records exist is because of the great emphasis Mohammed put on universal education, hence even his enemies could write about him.<br /><br />Age has nothing to do with it. There is more contemporary support for Mayan and Chinese historical records predating 3500 years than there is contemporary evidence for Jewish records. <br /><br />Now I'm not gonna bother with the other stuff you wrote, because that will not get us anywhere. <br /><br />Orthoprax:<br /><br />"Who says I was asking for anything?"<br /><br />Then why make such a thread?<br /><br />"Likely none of which you think you possess."<br /><br />Indeed. This says it all. <br /><br />I was only trying to help.<br /><br />Farewell!Shalmonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-73006391388158225432009-04-24T19:36:00.000-04:002009-04-24T19:36:00.000-04:00>In Islam there is nothing even remotely simila...>In Islam there is nothing even remotely similar to Yahweh ordering people to eat their own children (Deut. 28: 53-57),<br /><br />I have already established not to waste my time with fools like you, but I couldn't stand for this. Are you an utter and complete imbecile. If you quote a source (especially one as widely available as Deuteronomy), take care to at least understand what it's saying.Acherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-11640690287653358322009-04-24T19:30:00.000-04:002009-04-24T19:30:00.000-04:00Shalmo,
"Only in response to your claim that all ...Shalmo,<br /><br />"Only in response to your claim that all three forms of ethical monotheism are the same, WHICH THEY MOST ASSUREDLY ARE NOT. There are extreme fundamental differences between all three faiths."<br /><br />Yes, trivial differences. Nothing significant on the approach for the meaning of life - y'know, the topic of discussion.<br /><br />"Actually this isn't unique to Judaism at all."<br /><br />Unique among the three Abrahamic faiths we were discussing was what I was referring to.<br /><br />"I find great wisdom in Islam and Christianity view that individual beliefs can make you part of a group, rather than what flows in your blood. Having a rabbinical court decide where one's affiliations lie is just too primitive."<br /><br />Yes, the concept of family is primitive. Touche.<br /><br />"Then what do you want?"<br /><br />Who says I was asking for anything?<br /><br />"What sort of answer will satisfy you?"<br /><br />Likely none of which you think you possess.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Eman,<br /><br />"I think Homers writings are different because they are meant as a story not as a history."<br /><br />Yes, and? The point is that the people believed in all sorts of supernatural aspects of the story - as history. <br /><br />"The difference is that along with the oral tradition there is a written tradition which is very unique to Judaism from that time period."<br /><br />What time period? How early do you believe the Torah was written and how do you know that? Modern scholars point out a number of textual clues that imply late authorship.<br /><br />"I have heard thoughts that maybe Dovid Hamelech made up the whole thing, but it sounds like you are saying something else which seems very unlikely since there was no similarities to this and other types of oral traditions."<br /><br />What do you mean? Virtually all the tribal tales and ancient religions are based on legends and stories passed down orally initally and then sometimes later put onto parchment. And some of their traditions are way out there.<br /><br /><br />Baal,<br /><br />Watching Eman and Shalmo go at it is heartbreaking. They're both a little right but there are errors found throughout each's argumentation.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-84200378855028098682009-04-24T18:55:00.000-04:002009-04-24T18:55:00.000-04:00E-man, do youself a favor and stick to Torah blogs...E-man, do youself a favor and stick to Torah blogs. For believers, there's nothing in this but heartache.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-56799947175071955142009-04-24T18:54:00.000-04:002009-04-24T18:54:00.000-04:00>Now the reason you can't apply this standa...>Now the reason you can't apply this standard to Islam is because every significant event in Islamic history has a plethora of contemporary evidence,<br /><br />You're funny. I'm not going into that, but you're being foolish. If a religion like Mormonism can catch on, a mere 100 years ago, all bets are off 1500 years ago. <br /><br />Anyhow, without extraordinary proof, all religion is off the table. Think of Hume's maxim "The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention) , "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish." <br /><br /><br />>Yes Chrisitianity bases itself on the OT, but Islam doesn't. <br /><br />Islam reveres the prophet Moses. How can you trust a religion like that when you just said the whole historicity of Jews is suspect?<br /><br />>Islam has none of that (thank God). <br /><br />Right, Islam is the religion of peace. And don't tell me that all the violence today is not true Islam. If it is, how come the millions and millions of moderate Islam does not take a stance and come out strongly against Islamic terrorism.<br /><br />>Well I first will have to convince you there is a God.<br /><br />Go ahead, try.<br /><br />>Have you read Paul Davies' "The Goldilocks Enigma: Why Is the Universe Just Right for Life?"<br /><br />I'm very familair with the concept.<br /><br />>You may also wish to pick up Francis Collins' "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief"<br /><br />I read that. Extremely lame. Here's my post about that - http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006/09/oh-my-god_29.html<br /><br />That was before I switched to Haloscan, and unfortunately the Blogger comments are not displayable.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-31503387618858606552009-04-24T18:14:00.000-04:002009-04-24T18:14:00.000-04:00Here is the video about the Muslim scientist that ...Here is the video about the Muslim scientist that says the world is flat http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/04/muslim-scientists-debate-whether-earth.htmlE-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-89015804195285675212009-04-24T18:06:00.000-04:002009-04-24T18:06:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-57309587901136848212009-04-24T18:03:00.000-04:002009-04-24T18:03:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-5683632973738853222009-04-24T17:50:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:50:00.000-04:00E-Man:
"This statement is just false. I don&...E-Man:<br /><br />"This statement is just false. I don't know how else to say it. 100% false."<br /> <br />"Also false. But I did see a great YOUTUBE video that an Iranian "Scientist" said that there is absolute proof that the Earth is flat. So maybe you are getting your "facts" from this guy."<br /><br />Ah I don't what this has to do with anything, and I am not sure you ever even saw such a video<br /><br />Are you talking about the Esther story? Because there is ZERO contemporary validity for it. Iranian records even during this period were far more sophisticated than Jewish ones, and there is not even a mention of a queen Esther or of any of the said events of thousands of iranians being killed even remotely verifiable. The same is true in records of contemporaries of Iran such as the hindus who recorded what was going on here during this time, and not even they back up what the fictitious story in the book of Esther.<br /><br />"Sorry to be so annoying about this and posting a third one in a row but I just wanted to give a link to show that shalmo is just wrong http://markset565.blogspot.com/search/label/Archaeology"<br /><br />I am sorry but quoting some christian apologist, who are know to make all sorts of outlandish claims, is not reliable at all. <br /><br />And btw do you know what these christians think of your bible? Do you know how distort verses like Isaiah 7:14, or Isaiah 9:6 to apply them to Jesus in order to convert Jews? How can you believe people who use your own holy book to lie so much?<br /><br />anyway here's a good reading for you:<br /><br />'The Demise of Biblical Archaeology':<br /><br />Indeed , there is now so much contrary evidence against the historical accuracy of the Bible that the term "biblical archaeology" has now been discarded in professional archeology! [The preferred term now being Syro-Palestinian archaeology. The whole paradigm of archaeology in the Near East has shifted away from thinking of the Bible as a reliable archaeological field guide to that of a collection of ancient fairy tales and legends.<br /><br />The BBC journalist Matthew Sturgis account in his book "It Ain't Necessarily So" (2001) summarizes the current situation nicely:<br /><br />A new generation of archaeologists has emerged...they are challenging the intellectual assumptions of their predecessors...During the years since World War II it has become harder and harder to escape this sense of doubt. The expected discoveries of specific biblical artifacts and buildings were simply not being made...Discrepancies between the biblical account and the ever increasing archaeological record become more noticeable and harder to ignore...Rather than using the Old Testament as a field guide, the current crop of archaeologists is increasingly putting the Bible aside...The very term biblical archaeology has become tainted, and is now rejected by many academics...The old quest to confirm the historical truths of the events in the Bible has been replaced by a new agenda: to build a full and detailed picture of life in the ancient Near East. If the Bible is consulted at all, it is approached with varying degrees of skepticism. The onus of proof has shifted: the text [of the Bible] is now considered historically unreliable until proven otherwise. <br /><br />Over the last decade, quote a number of books have been published outlining this state of affairs.<br /><br /> * T.W. Davis, “Shifting Sands: The Rise and Fall of Biblical Archaeology”, Oxford 2004<br /> * I. Finkelstein, “The Bible Unearthed”, Free Press 2001<br /> * A.D. Marcus, “The View from Nebo”, Little, Brown & Co 2000<br /> * M. Sturgis, “It Ain’t Necessarily So”, Headline 2001<br /> * T.L. Thompson, “The Mythic Past”, Basic Books 1999<br /> * T.L. Thompson, “The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives”, Trinity 2002 <br /><br />Basically the main thesis of these books can be summarized as follows: much of what passed as history (such Abraham and the “patriarchal narrative”, Moses and the exodus and the conquest of Canaan) is now considered, based on the mass of available archaeological evidence, to be largely mythical. The Israeli archaeologist, I. Finkelstein (see his book above) goes even further; he asserts that historical evidence is lacking for even the united kingdom of David and Solomon! Indeed today some of the major events and characters of the Old Testament are no longer considered historical!<br /><br /> * Abraham and the patriarchal narratives<br /> * Moses and Exodus<br /> * Joshua and the conquest of Canaan. <br /><br />While it is true that David and Solomon existed, the archaeological evidence shows that the kingdom of David and Solomon were nowhere near how they are described in the Bible. Indeed Jerusalem during the time of David and Solomon was little more than a village with less than 5,000 people!<br /><br />There are clear fictive elements in other Biblical books as well.<br /><br /> * The books of Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah contain contradictions, elements of numerology and anachronisms.<br /> * The books of Ruth, Esther, Job and Jonah are works of pure fiction.<br /> * The book of Daniel is fraudulent fiction masquerading as a prophetic work. <br /><br />In short, the Bible is not a "good Book".Shalmonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-21317662804103519232009-04-24T17:36:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:36:00.000-04:00E-Man:
"I believe that both the Quaran and Christ...E-Man:<br /><br />"I believe that both the Quaran and Christianity base their beliefs on the revelation at Sinai. They just hold that G-D either spoke to Jesus at a later date or Mohamed. If I am wrong please inform me of a source so I can see the error."<br /><br />Christianity does indeed base their belief on everything written in your Torah. Islam however rejects it.<br /><br />This means that they the way modern Israeli archaeology has determined that the history in the Torah is more or less the political propaganda of Judea's kings, then that would refute both Judaism and Christianity of being true. However it wouldn't refute Islam because Islam does not lay any claims of authority to either Jewish or Christian holy books.<br /><br />"Plus- I am unsure of which Judaism you refer to that does not believe in the afterlife. All of orthodox Judaism's oral tradition says that a jew that does not believe in the world to come is not actually invited to the world to come. Not sure why the basic understanding of a verse from koheles, which is all an allegory and full of parables, would disprove that."<br /><br />Well Orthodox Judaism is not the only Judaism. Modern Judaism descends from the Pharisees in second temple Judea.<br /><br />But they were just one Jewish sect. They were countless other sects such as the Sadducees and Karaites who totally rejected your Oral Torah. There were also the mystics or Essenes. And many others that I can name. And some of these sects rejected an afterlife. So which one is true? There are LOTS of arguments I can bring against the so-called Oral Torah, such as why is it that only Pharisees had one yet the other Jewish sects didn't. The Pharisees were the Zorastrian-influenced party since Pharisse comes from the word 'parsi' which is the persian word for Zorastrian, in other words they took many ideas from Zorastrians and incoporated them into Judaism (the concept of an afterlife may indeed be such a concept), as the Ecclesiastes verse I showed implies there isn't an afterlife and the concept of an afterlife is silent in the Torah, leading many to believe its a later development in Jewish thought.<br /><br />"I want to focus on your question here, purpose for believing. Basically, the question to ask is this, do you trust your forefathers or not? "<br /><br />Many of the Jewish forefathers were also liars. Maimonides despite being the greatest Jewish scholar of all time was also a notorious liar.<br /><br />"It is kinda like most types of history in the world. Do I trust the historians or are they lying to me? Now, if I were creating the Jewish religion I would have just claimed one prophet talked to G-D just like Islam and Christianity. Much easier to tell people. But to tell every single Jew that their ancestor spoke to G-D themselves, that is pretty crazy."<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />Not this again<br /><br />My friend the concept of a single man or prophet hearing the words of God is what is more unique in history, not national revelation as Chabad propaganda claims. Almost every pagan religion claims to have an origin through national revelation, its actually a much more unique idea for a single man to hear God speak than a nation. <br /><br />In short, the argument is that Judaism is unique because it has, at its origin, a mass revelation. Millions of people stood at Mt. Sinai and literally heard God speak. Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that the only proof that this happened is because it says it in the very book you're trying to prove, it's a fair argument.<br /><br />The Aztecs, for example, had a national revelation story. They believed that their god, Huitzilopochtli, led them (in person) to the site of present-day Mexico City. Based on Rabbi Mizrachi's assertion, the very fact that another group even claims a mass revelation shows that the Torah is not true.<br /><br />(According the Aubin Codex, the Aztecs originally came from a place called Aztlan. They lived under the ruling of a powerful elite called the "Azteca Chicomoztoca". Huitzilopochtli ordered them to abandon Aztlan to find a new home. He also ordered them never to call themselves Aztec; instead they should be called "Mexica." Huitzilopochtli guided them through a long journey. For a time, Huitzilopochtli left them in the charge of his sister Malinalxochitl, who, according to legend, founded Malinalco, but the Aztecs resented her ruling and called back Huitzilopochtli. He put his sister to sleep and ordered the Aztecs to leave the place. When she woke up and realized she was alone, she became angry and desired revenge. She gave birth to a son called Copil. When he grew up, he confronted Huitzilpochtli, who had to kill him. Huitzilopochtli then took his heart and threw it in the middle of Lake Texcoco. Many years later, Huitzilopochtli ordered the Aztecs to search for Copil's heart and build their city over it. The sign would be an eagle perched on a cactus, eating a precious serpent. The Aztecs finally found the eagle, who bowed to them, and they built a temple in the place, which became Tenochtitlan.)<br /><br />If anything the mass revelation tidbit provides us with insight to just how pagan Judaism is, because it’s a common features of pagan religions to have mass revelation stories where a god reveals himself, leads people on vast journeys, etc etc<br /><br />You seem to be misinformed about Islam because Islam is based on the revelations received to countless prophets in muslim literature, not just Mohammed. In your Torah do you remember that Abraham and his family were blessed, before Issac was born. That blessing on Ishmael, what happened to it? According to the Artscroll Chumash that prophecy was fulfilled in Mohamed.Shalmonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-41657718916216520472009-04-24T17:31:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:31:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-75430115834978031492009-04-24T17:29:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:29:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-61675185959414967162009-04-24T17:25:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:25:00.000-04:00Orthoprax-
I think Homers writings are different ...Orthoprax-<br /><br />I think Homers writings are different because they are meant as a story not as a history. <br /><br />"Consider, briefly, for the possibility that our forefathers were neither liars nor recipients of revelation but that they were illiterate, superstitious people from the iron age who built a commonly accepted mythic history based on legends and half-remembered stories which was then passed along orally down the generations with as reliable a coherence as any game of broken telephone."<br /><br />The difference is that along with the oral tradition there is a written tradition which is very unique to Judaism from that time period. Also, the fact that it is monotheistic is unique to that time period. <br /><br />I have heard thoughts that maybe Dovid Hamelech made up the whole thing, but it sounds like you are saying something else which seems very unlikely since there was no similarities to this and other types of oral traditions.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-70498599858225552682009-04-24T17:14:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:14:00.000-04:00Orthoprax:
"Funny, 'cause you keep bringing it up...Orthoprax:<br /><br />"Funny, 'cause you keep bringing it up "<br /><br />Only in response to your claim that all three forms of ethical monotheism are the same, WHICH THEY MOST ASSUREDLY ARE NOT. There are extreme fundamental differences between all three faiths. Jewish monotheism isn't as absolute as the islamic one. Even Rambam felt the anthropormorphic God of the midrash was kefirah, hence why he reformed Judaism taking in bits and pieces of islamic monotheism, but not the whole thing.<br /><br />"Only if you ignore the fact that a non-believing man of faith in Islam or Christianity is an oxymoron. Jews are unique that they can remain Jews without faith."<br /><br />Actually this isn't unique to Judaism at all. Almost all primitive mythologies consider race not faith to determine whom you belong to. Hindus today in this regard are no different than Jews.<br /><br />I find great wisdom in Islam and Christianity view that individual beliefs can make you part of a group, rather than what flows in your blood. Having a rabbinical court decide where one's affiliations lie is just too primitive.<br /><br />"My post was about the existential human condition. Shalmo is trying to convince me otherwise by suggesting routes of thought I have long since considered."<br /><br />OK<br /><br />Then what do you want?<br /><br />What sort of answer will satisfy you?Shalmonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-39222752362089781482009-04-24T17:04:00.000-04:002009-04-24T17:04:00.000-04:00Baal Habos:
"I don't consider my skepticism to be...Baal Habos:<br /><br />"I don't consider my skepticism to be a failure of Judaism. I was perfectly fine with my faith AND elated with Judaism until I began to question it's historicity."<br /><br />There you go again!<br /><br />You say you questioned Judaism because of its historicity. That is a good criticism of any religion. Modern Israeli archaeology has totally debunked the history of the Torah. Or things like all the contemporary records of Iranian history that totally refute the Esther story as forgery. And so forth with all the Jewish stories that have their origins with mythology from the cannanites, egyptians, sumerians, babylonians, hittites, greeks, zorastrians, etc etc etc<br /><br />Now the reason you can't apply this standard to Islam is because every significant event in Islamic history has a plethora of contemporary evidence, far more than the other two abrahamic faiths (there is more data available on Mohammed and his life than any other figure in all of human history and I can back this up with secular references should you want them), but this is a long long long discussion and I don't wish to take this thread off-topic <br /><br />"I don't know much about the other Abramaic faiths except for the fact that if Judaism is false then those are certainly false because they are both based on the OT."<br /><br />Yes Chrisitianity bases itself on the OT, but Islam doesn't. <br /><br />In Islam there is nothing even remotely similar to Yahweh ordering people to eat their own children (Deut. 28: 53-57), or the often enough repeated instructions throughout the bible on the slaying of animals, women, children (1 Samuel 15: 1- 3), or cursing a man with bowel disease to the point that his bowels literally drop from his body (2 Chronicles 21: 12-19 ), or having bears rip apart 42 children just for making fun of a man's bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24), or God literally coming down to enjoy a man literally being hacked to pieces (1 Samuel 15:33), or something as revolting as Ezekiel 4:1-15. Much has been written about the ghastly books of the OT. Islam has none of that (thank God). Contrary to passages like Ezekiel 9:4-6 we are ordered in the Quran to never harm women, children and non-combatants in war. <br /><br />“The Prophet Muhammad was not a warrior, but he found himself, like many of the Axial Age sages, in a violent society and he eventually brought peace to the region by practicing a daring policy of non-violence. He stopped the violence and went into Mecca unarmed and forced the Meccan to negotiate with him accepting terms that his followers thought were disgraceful,” - Karen Armstrong (secular authority on Islam)<br /><br />And again this is a very long topic of discussion, which I am more than willing to have with you somewhere else (by email if you want), because I don't not wish to take this thread off topic, since what we are supposed to be discussing is the meaning of life, NOT my religious affiliations.<br /><br />"As to God without religion, I'm agnostic about that. And since God did not reveal himself to me, any objective purpose I would find, is, at best, a guess."<br /><br />You are absolutely correct. Which is what I have been saying throughout this thread. Without God you cannot have any absolute since everything would then be subjective<br /><br />"If you know better, then please spill the beans."<br /><br />Well I first will have to convince you there is a God.<br /><br />Have you read Paul Davies' "The Goldilocks Enigma: Why Is the Universe Just Right for Life?"<br /><br />Its a fascinating book, written by a non-believer, who has written about why science has reached a point where its no longer possible to deny the question on why the universe is exactly fine tuned for life.<br /><br />You may also wish to pick up Francis Collins' "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief"<br /><br />Both ofcourse have a place for the evolutionary process in creation, so so check them out.Shalmonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-10164881110907582392009-04-24T16:26:00.000-04:002009-04-24T16:26:00.000-04:00E-man,
"Basically, the question to ask is this, d...E-man,<br /><br />"Basically, the question to ask is this, do you trust your forefathers or not? If you think that Judaism is a mass conspiracy theory then no reason to believe. However, if you think it is sincere then that is all the proof you need. G-D spoke to the entire nation of the Jewish people."<br /><br />You're obviously new here to the skeptical jblogosphere and you seem like a well-meaning fellow. So I'm giving you fair warning that if you really want to go down this road and discuss this issue - particularly that of the classical kuzari argument - be prepared for the possibility that your comforting emunah peshutah will never be the same again.<br /><br />Consider, briefly, for the possibility that our forefathers were neither liars nor recipients of revelation but that they were illiterate, superstitious people from the iron age who built a commonly accepted mythic history based on legends and half-remembered stories which was then passed along orally down the generations with as reliable a coherence as any game of broken telephone.<br /><br />We have good reason to believe the Trojan War really happened - but is Homer's Iliad a reliable representation of events? Were the Greeks, a hundred thousand strong who fought in battle, lying to their children? Is the Iliad the production of a massive conspiracy?<br /><br /><br />I have long, long since considered such topics of debate.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-27504918620475494132009-04-24T13:37:00.000-04:002009-04-24T13:37:00.000-04:00I hear what you are saying in your post, why do we...I hear what you are saying in your post, why do we think the world has a G-D or higher purpose and on the other side, why do we think it doesn't. I wrote a whole post on my blog why I believe in G-D, but I am not going to discuss those ideas.<br /><br />I want to focus on your question here, purpose for believing. Basically, the question to ask is this, do you trust your forefathers or not? If you think that Judaism is a mass conspiracy theory then no reason to believe. However, if you think it is sincere then that is all the proof you need. G-D spoke to the entire nation of the Jewish people. <br /><br />It is kinda like most types of history in the world. Do I trust the historians or are they lying to me? Now, if I were creating the Jewish religion I would have just claimed one prophet talked to G-D just like Islam and Christianity. Much easier to tell people. But to tell every single Jew that their ancestor spoke to G-D themselves, that is pretty crazy. <br /><br />This is why a discussion of Judaism always begins with Mt Sinai and not the creation of the world. There is no real way to say a higher power exists unless you spoke to or heard from that higher power.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.com