tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post8312708956062873820..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: James Kugel on OrthopraxyOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-38791871045752657732008-06-21T22:01:00.000-04:002008-06-21T22:01:00.000-04:00Anon,"And how does this resolve the numerous incon...Anon,<BR/><BR/>"And how does this resolve the numerous inconsistencies Kugel brings to the table in his book?"<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure. He seems to be making a few links in reasoning that he doesn't explicitly express. Probably that 'between the lines' of the text lies the divinity as brought out in later rabbinic readings. Therefore the inconsistencies - and even the varied sources of the Torah - don't matter all that much.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-14067831898032326942008-06-15T01:38:00.000-04:002008-06-15T01:38:00.000-04:00"This is evident within the Bible itself, and the ..."This is evident within the Bible itself, and the trajectory of avodat H' as presented in the Torah carries over into all the later stages of Judaism"<BR/><BR/>But Torah commentators have already made this point, and they didn't need Prof. Kugel's 'academic' approach. The trajectory from bereishit to devarim is highly suggestive of the tragectory of Judaism, as Torah scholars (ie rabbis) have noted.<BR/><BR/>And how does this resolve the numerous inconsistencies Kugel brings to the table in his book?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-17289192770742814352008-03-27T20:25:00.000-04:002008-03-27T20:25:00.000-04:00To Miri; perhaps 'sefarm hachitzonim' are all book...To Miri; <BR/><BR/>perhaps 'sefarm hachitzonim' are all books outside the Tanakh (i.e. the Apocrypha are early "outer" writings. There are also the writings of the issiyim (like "sefer hayovelot", and other kinds of books they found at kumeran) and of course the new testament. There were also the books of the Greeks and the Romans (the Mishna was written pretty late in history in that respect), and of people like Philo.)הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"טhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04835340110056405173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-71475344211807574182008-03-09T12:22:00.000-04:002008-03-09T12:22:00.000-04:00This is very similair to an XGH postinghttp://extr...This is very similair to an XGH posting<BR/><BR/>http://extremegh.blogspot.com/2007/11/what-if-torah-is-not-divine.html<BR/><BR/>with an interesting discussion following it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-33014432201673331762008-03-07T16:41:00.000-05:002008-03-07T16:41:00.000-05:00Shai,"What happens when the practice becomes in an...Shai,<BR/><BR/>"What happens when the practice becomes in and of itself the manifestation of Judaism that makes us "Orthodox"? What happens when we lose complete track of the doctrine (hashkafa)?"<BR/><BR/>I don't think that's a big problem. I agree with P' Kugel here that ultimately Orthopraxy is not maintainable long term without some measure of hashkafa. Some form of monotheism and the transformative power of deeds and deep thoughts will continue.<BR/><BR/>"What trips me up about people who believe in orthopraxy as an alternative (even accepting Kugel's nuance here) is when do they ask "so what"?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, that is a problem. Orthodoxy has the force of God mandating behavior while Orthopraxy is more subjective and based on individual valuation of Judaism. This is no unapparent weakness to me.<BR/><BR/>"For you as a doctor..."<BR/><BR/>Well, I'm actually not a doctor yet. Get back to me in a couple of years. ;-)<BR/><BR/>"It is THAT halacha pushes us into a life of introspection and ethical extrospection that makes our culture click. But I don't see most orthodox Jews tying into that. It's for them about the form, not the substance."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree with you. The unfortunate common superficiality in observant communities undermines much of the good, the soul, of what Judaism could be.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Miri,<BR/><BR/>"I think "sfarim hachitzoniim" are usually the Apocrypha; but I'm not 100% sure bc Jews used to learn those almost as regular sefarim. I mean, mostly in the post-second-churban time period."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I think that's generally accurate. But there were possibly other books too.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-38325345337443730742008-03-07T06:09:00.000-05:002008-03-07T06:09:00.000-05:00"For example, that same chapter in the Mishnah say..."For example, that same chapter in the Mishnah says a Jew must not read from the "sefarim ha-hitzonim," and even if the Mishnah doesn't say exactly what those books are,"<BR/><BR/>I think "sfarim hachitzoniim" are usually the Apocrypha; but I'm not 100% sure bc Jews used to learn those almost as regular sefarim. I mean, mostly in the post-second-churban time period.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-47076658020080512702008-03-07T03:03:00.000-05:002008-03-07T03:03:00.000-05:00Thanks, DH, for publishing this letter. I am grat...Thanks, DH, for publishing this letter. I am grateful, too, to Professor Kugel, for his response. <BR/><BR/>I have a different question I think, and I'm not sure how to get my arms around it with either of your approaches. What happens when the practice becomes in and of itself the manifestation of Judaism that makes us "Orthodox"? What happens when we lose complete track of the doctrine (hashkafa)? Aren't all these in place to achieve something other than the mere continuation of doctrine or halacha?<BR/><BR/>I have also had the exact same question you had - if indeed Moshe wrote the whole Torah, is what we have that Torah? We accept this as a matter of faith, and that faith extends to rabbinic interpretation and many other matters to create of halachic observance a "culture". What trips me up about people who believe in orthopraxy as an alternative (even accepting Kugel's nuance here) is when do they ask "so what"?<BR/><BR/>For you as a doctor, for example, you are aware of halachic questions that inform decisions about medical ethics. Is the fact that the decision is halachic as or more important than the culture that encourages THAT we discuss these things? It is THAT halacha pushes us into a life of introspection and ethical extrospection that makes our culture click. But I don't see most orthodox Jews tying into that. It's for them about the form, not the substance. If they never allowed themselves for a moment to be touched by the ethical message in a way that made them richer and better persons wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, as long as they hold their kiddish cup the right way. See what I mean?<BR/><BR/>What am I missing here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com