tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post8399039930087269492..comments2024-01-07T05:17:58.943-05:00Comments on Orthoprax: קָצַפְתָּ עָלֵינוּ עַד-מְאֹדOrthopraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-38298722908990829562008-08-13T00:08:00.000-04:002008-08-13T00:08:00.000-04:00The King James Version is not so bad here for the ...The King James Version is not so bad here for the text. Saying turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us, can be taken to mean not that there is a rejection of us as His people but a relative rejection capable of being overturned as expressed in the first verse by our plea for restoration. <BR/><BR/>The NIV is totally radical sounding in saying restore us to yourself, O LORD, that we may return; renew our days as of old unless you have utterly rejected us and are angry with us beyond measure.<BR/><BR/>That means that we are asking for a conditional restoration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-88994065817598683392008-08-12T02:07:00.000-04:002008-08-12T02:07:00.000-04:00The end of Yonah ends on a weird note, too.Hey, OP...The end of Yonah ends on a weird note, too.<BR/>Hey, OP, if you'd like to see the Greek and Latin on the last verse of Eicha, (not to mention a Christian English version), check out: <BR/>http://www.sacred-<BR/>texts.com/bib/poly/lam005.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-31242544203832948262008-08-11T13:54:00.000-04:002008-08-11T13:54:00.000-04:00"Jeremiah must have died more than a hundred years..."Jeremiah must have died more than a hundred years before Plato was even born."<BR/><BR/>Wiki says:<BR/>"Plato (Greek: Πλάτων, Plátōn, "broad")[1] (428/427 BC[a] – 348/347 BC),"<BR/><BR/>so, yeah probably more than 100 years after Jeremiah.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-54903106521940444262008-08-11T09:35:00.000-04:002008-08-11T09:35:00.000-04:00>Kohelet, Isaiah, Malachi. Check 'em out.Yo...>Kohelet, Isaiah, Malachi. Check 'em out.<BR/><BR/>You're right, Malachi & Koheles aren't that bad, though.<BR/><BR/>But Isaiah doesn't sit well with me either.<BR/><BR/>I really would not be surprized if there's something missing there.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LOL about the Plato anachronismBaal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-69058971126718042592008-08-11T01:15:00.000-04:002008-08-11T01:15:00.000-04:00Al,I believe that story is of Christian origin, bu...Al,<BR/><BR/>I believe that story is of Christian origin, but what's most interesting is that Jeremiah must have died more than a hundred years before Plato was even born.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-28239562060796250802008-08-10T23:27:00.000-04:002008-08-10T23:27:00.000-04:00I spent most of the morning Kinot session reading ...I spent most of the morning Kinot session reading the Artscroll overview but there is a section on page XII that is really over the top even for Artscroll. It cites a Rama that talks about Plato meeting Jeremiah near the Temple ruins. Plato can't understand what all the crying and wailing is about. Jeremiah first has to show him what an idiot he is:<BR/><BR/>"The Greek recited his long list of complicated problems. Humbly and quietly Jeremiah solved them all in a few brief sentences. Plato was dumbfounded. 'I can't believe that any mortal man can be so wise!'"<BR/><BR/>Ah, I learned that all in the Bais Hamikdash (i.e. Kolel) and that's why I'm so sad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-51100247677151461382008-08-10T19:43:00.000-04:002008-08-10T19:43:00.000-04:00Well I'm a fan of thinking about verses and what t...Well I'm a fan of thinking about verses and what they mean.<BR/><BR/>I'd favor Artscroll here. I don't think their intent is to translate "Ki Im" as "even if." "Ki" just means "For," or "because." The point is, Have mercy on us, FOR (even) if we've really stunk up the joint, still, we've suffered enough.<BR/><BR/>I think they kind of confused everyone with the "even if."The Candy Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13749324546753894121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-92073163517879915572008-08-10T16:53:00.000-04:002008-08-10T16:53:00.000-04:00Baal,Kohelet, Isaiah, Malachi. Check 'em out.Baal,<BR/><BR/>Kohelet, Isaiah, Malachi. Check 'em out.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-59885366429297128662008-08-10T15:22:00.000-04:002008-08-10T15:22:00.000-04:00I can sort of hear the Ki Im. But what other bibli...I can sort of hear the Ki Im. But what other biblical literature ends like that on such a downer?Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-90890255873852912432008-08-10T14:44:00.000-04:002008-08-10T14:44:00.000-04:00Baal,"Artscroll, adding the word "even", is kind o...Baal,<BR/><BR/>"Artscroll, adding the word "even", is kind of a stretch."<BR/><BR/>No, I think that's a valid translation. As Miri says, it's based on the 'im' not the 'ki.' And given how the resk of the book asserts that the punishment will end soon and redemption will come, it wouldn't make sense for it to conclude with a different message.<BR/><BR/>"But what really bugs me is how Aicha ends on that possuk. Almost like something is missing."<BR/><BR/>You think so? I think it was just classic of Biblical literature to end on sour notes. How many times do we read the penultimate verse again at the end of things?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-56215233592696923542008-08-10T14:06:00.000-04:002008-08-10T14:06:00.000-04:00I'm not sure that "even" is such a stretch; rememb...I'm not sure that "even" is such a stretch; remember it was not just כי but 'כי אם' which, colloquially, can mean a bunch of different things depending on context; and if you were translating the כי as because, then the "even makes a lot more sense; "because EVEN if You had rejected us..." it was probably more attached to the אם than the כי.<BR/><BR/>I agree that it's a little disturbing as a last pasuk when read the other way - it implies that there may never be a redemption. Maybe that's why they repeat the second to last pasuk over again.Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971075346520291515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-54464688081634483042008-08-10T09:04:00.000-04:002008-08-10T09:04:00.000-04:00Interesting. "KI" has four meanings as brought dow...Interesting. "KI" has four meanings as brought down here http://www.rashiyomi.com/wbook_04.htm<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Rashi Text<BR/>The first occurrence of the Hebrew word KI means because; the second occurrence of the Hebrew word KI means rather. Our sages have taught that the Hebrew word KI has 4 meanings: if, perhaps, rather, because.<BR/><BR/>Artscroll, adding the word "even", is kind of a stretch. <BR/><BR/>But what really bugs me is how Aicha ends on that possuk. Almost like something is missing.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-59096910243867618302008-08-10T03:10:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:10:00.000-04:00Yes, that was particularly the kind of verse that ...Yes, that was particularly the kind of verse that I was referring to as Isaiah's remarks.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10333247.post-74101805253314629172008-08-10T03:06:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:06:00.000-04:00Perhaps the best comment is from the Hafatarah on ...Perhaps the best comment is from the Hafatarah on Shabbat:<BR/>שָׂרַיִךְ סוֹרְרִים וְחַבְרֵי גַּנָּבִים כֻּלּוֹ אֹהֵב שֹׁחַד וְרֹדֵף שַׁלְמֹנִים <BR/>Your ministers are rebellious, and companions of thieves; every one loves bribes, and chases kick-backsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com