Wednesday, December 14, 2005

Freaky Frumteens

Once in awhile I am drawn to look at the discussions being had at the Frumteens website, either on my own or directed by other bloggers for especially egregious statements, and I find that I need to surf the site in absolute amazement like a person who can't walk away from watching a horrible car accident on the street.

I see people making statements without apologetics regarding the "background" level which goyim hold, the same as animals and plants, in the eschatology of their belief system. I see them being so sure about their beliefs based on obviously piss-poor arguments. The Kuzari would be proud... The weird secret Moderator promotes a scary life of anti-intellectualism and where man cannot judge morality for himself.

Their entire world is crazily shifted at 57 degrees from rationality. Reading through some of those discussions makes my head swirl. They live in a wonderland that I find impossible to relate to and I seriously cannot understand how I could have ever been even remotely associated with a such a worldview.


But then I think about their discussions from a different perspective. I see their foundational beliefs and later arguments as being so off the mark that they might as well be from bizarro world. Even in terms of logical structure and understanding they fail time and time again. Yet, now, suppose God exists and looks into the debates of atheists and serious skeptics...might it be that He is thinking the same thing? Just a thought.

25 comments:

Jewish Atheist said...

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." --Thomas Jefferson

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --Galileo Galilei

InterestingJew said...

Hey! Have you seen some of the blogging re: the book "Unchosen"? Fascinating stuff, and I've had similar reactions myself.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

I'm not arguing with that, I feel the same way. However, it may be that our powers of reason just aren't up to snuff to the point where we can conclude that God exists. And yet he may exist regardless.

If God does exist, I suspect that He is fine about debates of his existence as long as they are done "l'shem shamayaim," as it were. As long as the purpose is in the pursuit of truth and real understanding and not for lesser or selfish purposes.

Jewish Atheist said...

However, it may be that our powers of reason just aren't up to snuff to the point where we can conclude that God exists.

And it may be that I'm only a brain in a jar in some alien's laboratory. I prefer to use Occam's razor.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

You may prefer to use whatever you may, but it is unquestionable that our cognitive powers are limited.

I'm not saying there's a 'therefore' there, but it's a point to keep in mind. Uncritical acceptance of logic can be just as bad as uncritical acceptance of any dogma.

Jewish Atheist said...

I agree with that. However, it's all we've got.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

There's always faith. ;-)

onionsoupmix said...

mhm. Frumteens is not half as bad as chabadtalk.com for excellent examples of outrageous belief systems. At least with frumteens, you can chalk it up to the chronological age. Chabadtalk, I don't know, maybe you can chalk it up to the mental age.

Mar Gavriel said...

Not to mention that Frumteens can't even spell...

(By the way, I have been told by someone who claims to know that about half of the comments by the "teens" are actually written by the repulsive moderator.)

Jewish Atheist said...

There's always faith. ;-)

Or guessing! Guessing's good.

Orthoprax said...

Onion,

Yeesh, I read through some of chabadtalk. They're wacky too. But what really gets me is that these people aren't _stupid_, they just have chosen what I think are poor axioms for their basis of belief about the world. That kind of thinking can be impossible to overcome.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

I think it's more like traditional guessing. But I'm not arguing with you. I was being facetious. Mostly, anyhow.

alex said...

@@@ From how many degrees from rationality, in your opinion, was the Ramchal removed? If 56 or
less, then why do you bother with the small fries such as Frumteens? That's so beneath you. (I know, I
know, for the sake of all your readers....)
You've "taken on" the Rambam, so I think you could "take
on" the Ramchal, too. I chose him in particular since he wrote at least two books on logic and reason.

Orthoprax said...

Alex,

You can't take my "degree system" literally. I picked "57" randomly to just suggest that Frumteens is way off its rocker.

I haven't really studied the works of the Ramchal much. I mean, I've read through his Derech Hashem a little bit, but not much other than that. Luzzato was building his own Kabbalistic system of belief and is in the same category as other mystical theologians. Wacky in some sense, but at the same time somewhat respectable. At least they tried to keep a reasoned approach. Frumteens, on the other hand, is nothing but off the wall.

I'm not sure I have anything specifically to "take on" with the Ramchal. I just wanted to post about Frumteens because it really bothers me.

alex said...

I knew you were being figurative with "57". And thus, I was figurative with "56". When you get a free few days (as a college student, hah!) you really ought to see the Ramchal's books on logic and reason.

Anonymous said...

Wow, I feel the exact same way about frumteens- you put it so eloquently, and hit the nail on the head. it is so warped, yet i always am compelled to read the posts because of how shocking they are, and it is actually very close to home. that moderator is something else.(negative.)
very interesting blog u got, ss.

freaky said...

are you guys saying you are better then all those people on frumteens.com? are you guys doing any better of a job then tnem for dramatic teenagers?

Orthoprax said...

Freaky,

Meh? This blog doesn't pretend to be a teen help site. But in any case, I would say that doing absolutely nothing is better than filling the minds of these easily influenced kids with the claptrap they shovel at frumteens.

freaky said...

what do you mean and let the people suffer with their emotions and confusions and least frumteens gives some kind peace to thei minds

Orthoprax said...

Freaky,

Suppose you had some crazy cultish site that preyed on confused and emotionally suffering kids and filled their heads with nonsense and morally offensive material. Would you be ok with that?

That is frumteens.

You're just ok with it because the nonsense they push at frumteens has a Jewish ring to it, but in reality it's just as bad as a crazy Christian or Muslim or Mormon or whatever website.

freaky said...

what do you mean people should just follow the torah with out really agreeing with it! just to follow blindly that is what i call a cult. then judisam is just like all the other nations the whole religion is used for our mental needs

Orthoprax said...

Freaky,

Are you having trouble understanding my responses? I didn't say anything about following or not following the Torah.

How old are you?

artzanu said...

You don't have to be an athiest to "believe" that frumteens is absolute junk. You can even be an Orthodox Jew to realize that! It's a cult!

Anonymous said...

The guy there just uses his own sources without taking into account other sources.

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