Monday, August 29, 2005

My Story

"...I would contend that the evidence is not weak enough for you to have given it all up. The reason you did is most likely that you never perceived value in the religion in the first place, and hence got mired into skepticism to an irrational degree."

Simply not true. I could tell you my story. I was very religious as a child. I was the little kid who at 10 wanted to fast Tisha B'av and Yom Kippur - and who did it the full day. I was the one in camp when all the other kids were lazying in bed, I would go off to chinuch because I enjoyed it.

I was always a very curious child and would ask my parents all sorts of questions, but as time went on I got less and less satisfying answers. I went delving into the fundamentals of Judaism because, besides for my own curiosity, I wanted to be able to give my kids the best and fullest answers I could for anything they would ask me.

So I began my studies without fear that Judaism had anything to lose. Orthodoxy was obviously right so what had I to fear from seeing things from different sides? But as I studied the more it all fell apart in my hands. I kept looking for rational after rationale to keep it up but it just wasn't working out.

So one night, as I lay in bed, I thought, "Hey, wait, what if God isn't real, the Torah is man-made, and so on" that explains all the problems I've been finding in Judaism. All of them are explained thus.

I didn't really take that to heart for awhile though, I kept looking for ways to prove Judaism's validity, I saw the consequences and refused to have them, I spoke to dozens of religious people and rabbis but none of them had the goods. They all supplied the same tired arguments that I knew were useless.

So I was forced to come to the conclusions I've come to. I didn't want them, I didn't ask for them, but they came just the same.

And even now I don't want to walk away from Judaism. I can't. I'd like to reform it so that it isn't based on fairy tales. I'm proud to be a Jew, but not proud of much of what Orthodox Judaism believes and says. You don't know the endless heartache I go through because something I love is so wrong.

Don't put me in a box.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

You left because you
"wanted to follow your taivos"
"didn't care that much to begin with"
blah blah blah
thank you for posting your alternate perspective.

elf said...

I think we have a lot in common.

I've observed that it is often the most religious young people who become the most skeptical as they grow older. It seems to me that this is because we care enough about religion to study it thoroughly and ask serious questions.

On the other side of the aisle is my best friend from childhood, who was skeptical at a young age and later became very frum. Our paths were different -- she found frumkeit as a teenager, while I found Darwinism in high school and biblical criticism in college -- but I think that we both ended up where we did for similar reasons: we were looking for answers to difficult questions. The people I can't relate to are the ones who just carry on with the lives they're used to without ever questioning.

elf said...

Btw, you should read Mordecai Kaplan, if you haven't already.

Anonymous said...

Hey,
it's nice to read someone relating a thoughtful exposition of what they believe/not and why. i'm getting tired of the folks who think that their personal opinions give them license to not think, and to be assholes to those who hold different opinions.
keep up the good work,
alan soctt

Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"You left because you
"wanted to follow your taivos"
"didn't care that much to begin with"
blah blah blah"

I've always hated dismissive contemptuous crap like that. It's fine that you don't agree with me, but meet me on the terms of my arguments, y'know?

Orthoprax said...

elf,

"I've observed that it is often the most religious young people who become the most skeptical as they grow older."

If I recall, I believe even Einstein had a streak like that. L'havdil, of course. ;-)

"Btw, you should read Mordecai Kaplan, if you haven't already."

Sure, I've been there. Very attractive but also somewhat inauthentic. Though I am having a tough time coming up with something better.

Orthoprax said...

Alan Scott,

"keep up the good work"

Hey, much appreciated. The unexamined life is hardly worth living, right?

Orthoprax said...

enigma,

"It's been a long and sometimes depressing struggle to find the truth, so when I hear comments like those, it brings me close to tears."

Indeed. They're put-down tactics (however unintentional) designed to undermine discussion. If you're sure that a person's case is really just supported by baseless opinion and a twisted life experience, then you figure that they've got nothing to offer.

"The ones like us, who stay despite the daily difficulties of reconciling our beliefs with our way of live need a voice, and yours is a powerful one. Thanks, Opie!"

I'm putting the message out there for people like you to find resonance and for people unlike us to find a novel understanding of how folks like us think. Thanks for the support.

Anonymous said...

there is a wonderful book by Gil Mann entitled "How To Get More Out Of Being Jewish Even Though You Don't..."

Anonymous said...

WE FFB have been seriously brainwashed. Now in my 50's I am almost done with deprogramming myself. I am fearful however the job will never get done but I am 87% free now. What's holding me back from 100%? Well it's frum parents, black hatted kids and an abundance of kosher restaurants. I am certain if left alone in mid-america I'd form a b-line to Ruth Kriss or Red Lobster. Hey did you catch Floyd on Live8? thought is was super

Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"there is a wonderful book by Gil Mann entitled "How To Get More Out Of Being Jewish Even Though You Don't...""

I've heard of it and it's on my list, but I really don't know what it has to offer me that I don't already have.

Anonymous said...

>>"You left because you
"wanted to follow your taivos"
"didn't care that much to begin with"
blah blah blah"


Well, this "believer" has certainly contributed to the sinat chinam that drove ME further away from people just like him...

Orthoprax, I won't try to sell you any "liberal" Judaism-- been there, done that, then became frum and dropped that. I don't know about following my taivos, but I dropped EVERYTHING in my secular world to go to BT yeshiva, and I cared about learning more than anything in the world. You can imagine my disappointment when I found no answers to the same questions you started asking.

However, I'm surprised by the strict divide between believers and atheists on these blogs. What happened to good old agnosticism? It doesn't require you to abandon anything but the arrogant position that you KNOW God exists (or doesn't!), and it is the ONLY intellectually honest position a human can take in contemplating the Divine. If you drop orthodoxy, there's no reason to go to the liberal movements which are watered down versions of the same thing-- instead, turn to Spinoza or Einstein, and build a whole new relationship with the God they DIDN'T tell you about in yeshiva.

Think outside that box they've got you in!

Anonymous said...

btw, that last comment was from rabbipolar. ahoy, mate!

Orthoprax said...

rabbipolar,

"However, I'm surprised by the strict divide between believers and atheists on these blogs. What happened to good old agnosticism?"

I think you're using the agnostic term as some sort of middle ground between the two positions. But realistically, a person is either a believer or is not. Agnostic is what one says when they don't want to take sides. But it's not about taking sides, it's about recognizing what you believe in your own mind.

Everyone is an agnostic, it's just a few people who wish to call themselves that.

I prefer calling myself a Skeptic, however, since I don't care to choose a side for loyalty and am perfectly willing to consider the possibility of God. I just don't really believe it to be true.

Sarah said...

How well I understand. I've told myself that the reason I haven't posted or read or replied to anything in the 3 weeks since I've been back is because I've been super busy. And I have been super busy. But besides for that was just the plain fact that all this blogging just hurts too much. Sometimes before I go to sleep at night lately I get this tinge of guilt, a feeling that I'm hiding from what I know and taking the easy way out.

But then I think: I know I'll never leave Judaism, and I'll never even leave Orthodoxy. Is there a point in making myself suffer by beating into my brain the things I've already realized? Is it wrong to just want some peace for myself?

Orthoprax said...

Sarah,

I was wondering when I'd hear from you again. You're way overdue for a check-in y'know.

"Is there a point in making myself suffer by beating into my brain the things I've already realized? Is it wrong to just want some peace for myself?"

See, we're too smart for our own good. But how can we not play the hand we were dealt? Ignoring the issues won't make them go away.

Sarah said...

Daniel,

I was wondering if anybody noticed. I wrote half a post and then just couldn't finish it. It just took too much out of me. Don't know if that feeling is going to go away and the blogging will come back full force, but I guess only time will tell.

"Ignoring the issues won't make them go away."

I agree. My problem is that I don't see the issues going away even if I do face them. They seem unsolvable, and so I find it increasingly useless to keep focusing on things I can't change and can't do anything about. Perhaps you see a concrete issue that needs solving and a plan to solve it. For me, I only see myself suffering while the vast majority skips happily on ...

Orthoprax said...

Sarah,

"Perhaps you see a concrete issue that needs solving and a plan to solve it."

I hope so. Judaism without false metaphysics, but a meaningful loyalty to tradition. I think that's possible and hopefully sustainable.

"For me, I only see myself suffering while the vast majority skips happily on ..."

Ignorance being bliss...the bane of my existence.

Sarah said...

Daniel and Enigma,

I don't want to be misunderstood. I definitely appreciate the blogging world, the issues it confronts, and the people who take comfort and are confronted by it. I just don't know if at this moment in time it's adding all that much to my own life. I have so much going on and so much to worry about, I wonder if it's not something better to be put on the side for awhile ...

Orthoprax said...

Sarah,

Ok, so don't worry about it. But don't pretend that there's nothing going on either.

Anyway, what'd you study over the summer?

Sarah said...

Daniel,

did a little bit of a lot of things. Finally got the experience of a challenging gemara shiur which I was really thrilled about. I felt like a whole world of Jewish lit was opened to me whereas before I felt like I could never understand it.

Finished Seder Moed and a ton of other Masechtot for random people's shloshim (fun blogging topic, but let's just say that if it makes them feel better, I don't mind learning something interesting to help do that).

Did a lot of Tanach, altho admittedly not so in depth, and Shmoneh Perakim ... and I tought kids some of Shmuel Bet. Me teaching ... I found it largely funny, all things considered, but it was good.

It's funny how perceptive you notice kids are, and we sort of stamp that out of them. One of them asked a friend in shiur, why we listen to some dude (Rambam) for Halacha when we could make it up just as well. When she didn't have an answer, she got annoyed that the kid asked. And I just said, it's a valid question, and if you can't answer that question, don't you think maybe that's a problem?

:)

Orthoprax said...

Sarah,

"Finished Seder Moed and a ton of other Masechtot for random people's shloshim..."

You did the whole Seder Moed in a month? That's like 800 blatt. Doable, but I think that'd take a full time commitment, how'd you manage time for all those other studies and interests? Or are you just talking about the Mishnah?

In either case, I have to admit to being a little envious of you getting away for awhile and being able to just sit and do some learning.

"And I just said, it's a valid question, and if you can't answer that question, don't you think maybe that's a problem?"

Ha, that's neat. ;-) Asking questions is always a good thing.

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